Episode 98- Amina Mohamed, Triple F Photo Tours Inc.

Travel

Oct. 12

There's nothing quite like the challenge of capturing that perfect photo. Great photos can bring a sense of wonder to your followers and lead them to fall in love with your travel destinations. But is there a way to travel and take photos ethically?

Traveling is a growing industry, with the number of travelers increasing every year. However, there is a dark side to this trade. While some see traveling as adventurous and liberating, others see it as lack of respect for the host communities. Let's take a look at ethical photography, social media, and the impacts they have around the world.

As a traveler, you may want to take photos from time to time that could be considered ethically questionable. Do we ever stop and think about why we want to take a photo? Are we really doing anything wrong by taking photos of the less fortunate?

Ethical photography can indicate an individual or a company that is worried about the impact of photography on the environment and / or on humans. The symbolism of ethical photography is a clear concern for the world and for its inhabitants.

Photography is also an aesthetic movement. An assertion of identity, love for travel and humans, respect of people who are considered often as subjects with a simple means of production.

Technology has been a blessing for those in the travel industry with social media and apps like Instagram. But the explosion of modern day technology has caused many problems in the tourism industry. Social media sites and unethical tourist attractions cause harm to local communities and animals of the wild.

Christine’s guest knows the impacts ethical photography can have on local communities around the world.

Amina Mohamed is a Photographer, Creator and Entrepreneur.

Amina Mohamed has always had a passion for photography. She spent fifteen years exploring this passion while working in film and television as a producer and production manager on numerous movies and documentaries.

In 2018, she started a for-profit travel business, Triple F Photo Tours and an initiative called Cameras For Girls, which was granted charity status in 2021. Through Triple F, Amina brings her travelers on culturally immersive photography tours and helps them improve their photography on every excursion.

Through Cameras For Girls, her mission is to teach photography and business skills to marginalized females across Africa who endeavour to become journalists. She gives them a camera to keep and a 4-phase program that empowers them to find paid work and escape poverty.

Each young girl is a journalist in training, and the help they receive allows them to explore photography and find jobs in the journalism field using their newfound skills. She has trained 32 young women via an in-person workshop in Uganda and 10 women online in South Africa, and 55% now have full-time jobs.

Amina will be returning to Uganda in June 2022 to resume the in-person workshop for CFG and the photography tour to Uganda and Tanzania with TFPT. Amina has been featured in the press across Canada both the for-profit and non-profit venture. She is proud that her for-profit can give back 10% of the revenues to the charity.

In this conversation, Christine and Amina discuss the rise of Instagram and how travel photography is overtaking travel journalism for telling the stories of destinations. Amina also helps listeners understand the term ethical photography and Christine and Amina dive into the topics covered in Amina’s article Why ethical photography is important when you travel the world.

Lastly, Amina shares how she brings her passion for photography to young women in Uganda, and tells us more about her Cameras For Girls initiative.

Join Christine for her soulful conversation with Amina Mohamed.

In this episode, Christine and Amina discuss:

Amina’s journey into travel and travel photography
The meaning of ethical photography
The rise of selfie photography and how it’s shifting the story of travel
How travel photography is overtaking travel journalism for telling the stories of destinations
Why its important to create local storytellers and respect cultural norms
Amina’s article: Why ethical photography is important when you travel the world

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

Learn more about Triple F Photo Tours and book your next photography tour at www.triplefphototours.ca

Follow Triple F Photo Tours on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn

Learn more about Cameras For Girls at www.camerasforgirls.org

Follow Cameras For Girls on Facebook, Instagram and Linkedin

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About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

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If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Amina Mohamed (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

travel, photography, people, Uganda, picture, camera, image, conversation, travelers, understand, story, ethical, girls, photo, culture, selfie, day, guide, photographer, place

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Amina Mohamed has always had a passion for photography. She spent 15 years exploring this passion while working in film and television and as a production manager on numerous movies and documentaries. In 2018, she started a for profit travel business, Triple F Photo Tours, and an initiative called Cameras For Girls, which was granted charity status in 2021.

Through Triple F, Amina brings her travelers on culturally immersive photography tours and helps them improve their photography on every excursion through cameras for girls. Her mission is to teach photography and business skills to marginalized females across Africa who endeavor to become journalists.

In our conversation, we discuss the rise of Instagram, and how travel photography is overtaking travel journalism for telling the stories of destinations. She helps us understand the term ethical photography, and we dive into the topics covered in her article Why ethical photography is important when you travel the world.

She also shares how she brings her passion for photography to young women in Uganda, and tells us more about her Cameras For Girls Initiative.

Joining me now for my soulful conversation with Amina Mohamed.

Welcome to the soul of travel. Today's conversation I am so excited to be bringing to the podcast, I have been looking for the right expert to talk about ethical travel photography. And I'm just really excited to dive in. So I'm going to introduce our guest Amina Mohamed, and she is joining us from Canada today.

And we're going to talk about the rise and popularity of Instagram, social media, the transition of travel journalism being replaced by travel photography and how when we have one image to tell a story, especially in like 20 seconds on Instagram, what story should we be telling?

And how can we be telling it in the most ethical way? So this is like an impossibly large topic that we're going to bring into this one hour. But I am really excited to give my listeners an opportunity to understand how they can bring this into practice in their travel experiences. So welcome to the podcast.

4:03

Thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, this is awesome. I love talking about this subject. And I never, you know, thought I would be one of those who talked about ethical photography. But as you travel and you start to take photos, ethics have to come into your life and especially when you focus on cultural travel, which I do, meeting different cultures being of a different culture, right, and then meeting other cultures, portraying them in the right light is so important.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 4:32

Yeah, I agree. Can you just take a moment to introduce yourself and let our listeners know who you are and what you do in the space of travel right now?

4:42

Yeah, so my name is Amina Mohamed. I live in Canada. As you said, I run a company called Triple F Photo Tours. I offer photo tours to different destinations recently where we were in Uganda and Tanzania. And we're a little bit different though. Other than that, teaching, you know how to improve your photography on our tours, we really focus on cultural immersion.

I strongly believe that when you travel, it's really important to not only see the beauty that different places have, but to really understand the local traditions, the language, the food, and what the culture is all about. And when you miss out on that, and you only see the beauty, then you've not really traveled, you've not really appreciated a place for what it has to offer. So I want it to be very different from my competitors.

And I also bring a little bit of a charity impact into it, because I run a charity, also called cameras for girls, we teach photography and business skills to marginalized females in Uganda, and they kind of intersect, because when you pay for our tours, 10% goes to support a girl. But more importantly, it's the ethics around it, right. And when I started this, ethics wasn't even in the picture.

But as I traveled, I started to see how people reacted to different cultures or didn't react and didn't, you know, photograph them in the right light. And there was not this understanding to obviously, when again, portray them in the right light, it started to kind of move me in that direction.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 6:27

Thank you so much for sharing that. I think this is just another one of those conversations that has evolved as we've evolved as travelers and hopefully are evolving as humans. And I know, this is something that for me early on as a traveler, it was one of those things, I had a real sense of what I didn't have language for. And I even started in college as a journalism major. And I went back again as a photojournalism major. But I kept running into this sense of feeling like I was somewhere where I shouldn't be or that I was kind of taking advantage of a situation to create a story or to sell something, sell a story, there just was so many parts of it that I kept bumping up against, I didn't know how to resolve what I was feeling. And what that ended up becoming is me just not doing it.

Because I didn't know what I was feeling. I didn't know how to unpack it. And so I'm so grateful that now we are starting to have conversations about this and understand, for me, what I was feeling. And it kind of validates that I wasn't crazy. I know I had so many people that said, you know, you're such a gifted storyteller, and photographer, you have to do this. And I think I just kept thinking, the best way I can do this is to not do this.

Because right now I don't know how to do it in a way that feels in alignment with who I am. And I was so uncomfortable, like invading people's spaces. And the word that kept coming up to me in that process was feeling voyeuristic, or, like I was trespassing that I wasn't really honoring it fully.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 8:17

We're definitely going to get into that. But as we start the conversation, before we even get there, I would love to learn about how travel and travel photography began to show up in your life. And what was the journey that brought you to the space that you're in now,

8:34

I'll try not to be long winded. So I used to work in film and television, I was a producer, documentaries, did films, short films. And I went to Uganda in 2007, to do a documentary about the return of the agents because we had left Uganda 50 years ago, this October, when I was just three. And we came as refugees. And I wanted to go back and discover my home. And I was always with a camera.

Like that was just who I was. But I never thought I could make it a career. And then when I started traveling and seeing the world, through the lens of my camera, and really appreciating what I was seeing, who I was meeting, but different. I love to talk to people from different cultures and religions and backgrounds. Because I want to understand what makes us all different. But yet, all the same, right? We all bleed the same under the skin that we have. It's just what we show on the outside.

So it's coming from a different background. I wanted to understand that very deeply. And so when I started to travel, and meet different people, that was the first thing that I started to take to myself, but again, at that time, I didn't think about it as well. I'm meeting such and such and how do I frame them in an Ethical lens, because it wasn't even a discussion. I think it's just inherent.

And I think what hit home for me is, when I led my first photo tour in 2018, and one of my guests, we came across, because there's the poverty of a scene that will burn in my brain forever. But it's nothing you want to photograph, because that's called poverty porn. And she will tell you what it was, but it was very disturbing. And she, being from North America, had never seen something like this. And your first tendency is to raise your camera. And I gently put my hand on her camera, I said, you're not going to be able to do anything with that, why take the picture? Because it's not doing the subject any respect. And it's not going to do anything for you. And I call it Poverty Point. And she had to think about it.

At first she was angry, like, how dare you? And the second thing she thought about is, oh, my God, you're right. Right. But we don't know that until somebody tells us or shows us the way. And I'm always asking for permission, regardless of who I meet, where I am, and always ask for permission. Because, yes, we're gonna be faced and see things that we've never seen in our own backyards before are in our old countries. And it might be the most, like, amazing thing we're seeing. And the first thought, because of social media now is like, Oh, my God, people are gonna love this photo.

But what is it doing to the person on the other side, ask permission, and if they say, No, walk away. So I always regardless, will, even if there's a culture, there's a language barrier. I always hold up my camera. And if they say, No, I think them and I walk away, because no picture is worth putting somebody else at harm. And that comes the same for wildlife. Because I do a lot of Safari. And recently, we were on safari and two Safari vehicles had boxed in an elephant.

And we were just coming up onto the scene, our driver stopped. And our guide, thankfully said back up, back, back back up, let the elephants escape into the bush. But these you know, just for the image, they were boxing in this elephant that was clearly put at stress. When you put an animal that stresses, what happens, they react and everybody can get hurt, including the animal. It's not worth it.

So I think being put into different situations, and educating myself about what I'm going to see and who I'm going to meet is important, because then it teaches me how to be respectful. In a country. That's not mine. I'm just a visitor.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 12:44

Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important, that's really the thing that I talk about a lot in the context of travel is how we can understand ourselves as a visitor in someone else's home. And, you know, we very much would think about that if we're traveling in our own city to a friend's house or to a, you know, family or to an event for work. And we have this way that we show up.

But when we travel, for some reason, we often lose that boundary, that tells us that we're a guest of the place that we're in. And many times we're our guests in a place that's sacred to indigenous communities that is sacred to animals. And we just need, I think, again, to put words around that, to understand that that's where we are, and like you said, Start asking questions, having conversations.

And I would believe that I'm not alone in being someone who had those feelings as I was traveling and writing and having these, you know, interactions, but not knowing what that sense was. As we kind of dive into this, can you talk about what ethical photography means to you? I know that you've kind of introduced the idea, but what is ethical photography?

14:02

For me, it's going into a space, taking a breath, right? And not just picking up your camera to snap, snap, snap, snap everything you see, because what are you really seeing when you do that? What are you appreciating?

Number one, number two, I think I already said it is that when you come upon somebody who you've never met before, you may never meet again, but they're very, they're dressed differently from you, or their culture is entirely different. I'll give you an example. Recently, I went to visit the Maasai in Tanzania. Now we were guided by a Maasai into the Maasai tribe. And before I picked up my camera, I asked for permission. Because I asked for permission.

The women invited me to take their portraits which I then sent them so they can be printed. But furthermore, the men invited me to participate in an A. Men only knew that they were slaughtering a goat. Now at first I was like, Oh, I love animals, I can't watch like an animal being killed. But when I understood that this was part of their culture, they're celebrating a wedding that happened the day for this is their, how they live their culture, it's not for me to judge, I opened up my mind, and I took the imagery, they've never seen themselves on camera before, half of them, right.

So as I was taking their photos, by invitation, I kept on sharing and showing the molar I shared and showed, the more they wanted me to take their photos. So now they have those photos that have been printed for them, they've been gifted them. And it's that respect between people first, and then our roles, as you know, a visitor into their, their domain, that allowed me that access, that made the difference.

Had I picked up my camera, gone in and just started shooting at will, like so many do, and then sharing them on social media, without the understanding behind the culture, then both of us would lose, I would not be sharing those images until I got acceptance. I've told them that I will share them in private photography circles because it helps me be a better photographer, but not on social media. And I think that brings to another point the other day I read Yes, two days ago, I read a very disturbing article about how many people are traveling to sacred sites, tearing their clothes off, just to get pictures of themselves naked in front of these incredible places for social media.

So social media has also become bad when it comes to ethical photography, because we forget about the field of flowers that have been, you know, grown by this person who's allowed you access. And now photographers are trampling those flowers just to get the best vantage point or perspective or shot. That's also not ethical photography, right? So I think it's, it comes down to respect, first of all, and it comes down to understanding your role as a photographer to, yes, portray what you're seeing, but in a way that it doesn't harm the your subject, whether it's, you know, a person, place or thing.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 17:23

The rise of selfie photography, I think, drives me crazy. Orange has become a stain to think about, because I think not only of the disrespect that's shown sometimes by trying to get this perfect image, but it's also really putting travelers at the center of storytelling. And I think that's shifting, also how we are telling that story.

And I had a real similar experience traveling to Bali. I probably could have written that article, because I was so incensed. It was the first trip I'd really taken. I had not traveled for a while because I had young children. And then I went to Bali, which was a dream destination for me. And I was really interested in visiting sacred sites and meeting local healers and like that part of the culture is what I really wanted to explore. And so I spent time researching people and connecting ahead of time and making these meetings and, you know, making sure these were places that I could be respectfully at, we went to hike to a waterfall.

And like as you enter the park, there's all these signs that say, you know, Please respect our sacred spaces, don't use profane language, walk calmly and quietly all of these things that are telling you how, how they're asking you to be in this space. And so we hiked down this little trail, and we're seemingly alone. And then we start to pass a few more travelers and then kind of open up into this area of this canyon where these waterfalls are and all of a sudden, there's all these people, much like you said, and like super skimpy bikinis taking shots that you just you know, that shot that's going to be on Instagram, and I just was so furious.

All my friends that were with me, they could see me just starting to boil up and like, oh, like they have asked us not even to use foul language. Why would you? Yep, perfect to be able to take a picture of yourself in this space. Like it is beautiful. I understand wanting your picture taken there. You know that that is a part of some people's travel experiences. But again, like asking the question, Is this the way that we should be showing up in the space we have been given a gift to be here, and this isn't how we should reciprocate that gift.

So for you when you are talking with travelers about selfies, or creating the narrative of them as the storyteller and through these images, how do you address this?

19:55

So on my last photo tour, two of my guests insisted on taking selfies everywhere we went, and I was ready to grab the selfie stick and break. It was just getting so angry because they were doing it more out of all let's just take a selfie, right? But they did not understand what they were seeing, where they were standing, or what was happening. So finally, I was like, Okay, I don't want to insult but how about instead of you taking a selfie, I explain what you're seeing.

And I take a photo of you in the space that doesn't harm the space, or the animals behind or whatever it is, right? So they finally started to get it. And then I would be like, Oh, let me take a photo for you. Right? Because I knew they were going to take a selfie too. I can't control that. But if I can control how they were doing it, and where they were doing it, like taking selfies of themselves behind the Maasai, or that was not unacceptable, or getting out?

No, because like insisting they get out on the side of the road where traffic was coming, because they wanted it with the olive baboons, where you see everywhere. It was just crazy stuff. And so I was like, Okay, I know, and they were very difficult travels. So, in order to keep everybody's stress level down, I was like, Okay, I'll take your photo, but I will do it in such a way that it's not going to put anything at Farm. Right. So we sort of got that understanding.

And I think it's just as you as the guide, or person who's bringing somebody you have to tell, you have to be the one to explain what they're seeing, why it's important, and how they should be photographing, and not photographing, right, because that's part of teaching photography. It's not just, you know, the angles or catching the right light or what have you. It's where you're standing, what you're seeing, and appreciating it, which, which they weren't stopping to do. Yeah.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 21:49

And I love that you mentioned that because I think what we're not saying is that you can't take the pictures and that you, you know, can't capture yourself traveling. But really just taking a moment, like you said, a breath and a pause, acknowledging where you are, acknowledging what you're seeing, maybe asking yourself, if this is something you should be documenting, and then going out and taking the picture. And it can be a process that happens quickly in your mind.

But like your energy, I think changes and the exchange, because there's always an exchange that shifts, and I think it just can be something very subtle, that allows you to capture images in a different way and in a more respectful way. And then there's obviously situations like the one you mentioned earlier, where it really just has to be a full stop and a pause on a deeper reflection. And so I think, you know, again, we're just kind of asking people to think about why they're taking pictures and what they're for.

And, you know, I have definitely been traveling where you have people around you that are taking a picture of everything. And um, are you even here, or being in a museum and taking a picture of every picture and taking a picture of everything that tells you about the picture, and I just want to be like, just stop and read it and look at the picture, and I can't imagine you're gonna go home and look at these 62 million pictures. And in the meantime, like, you're blocking everyone else around from enjoying the art. And there's so many layers to these things. And at the same time, like there is such a rise of social media and documenting and travel photography and travel media, like they're all things that exist, but just trying to figure out how we can create a container that

23:42

feels a little bit better, I think, for travelers and for the spaces that we're engaging in. But I also think that when you take a picture in a certain space, right, and it's something people have not seen, educate them about what you're showing, right? Don't just put up a picture up there because it's, you think it's gonna get a bunch of likes, really educate people, tell them the story behind them, tell them why it was important for that story to be documented or that photo to be documented. We stopped in Uganda.

In Fort Portal. It's called the tourism city full of tea fields, right? And we always pass by where my aunt used to own that tea field and no longer sadly, and we always stopped to meet the tea pickers because what I want to show to my guest is that a cup of tea means more than the SIP you're taking. These poor people work from sunup to sundown, picking 40 kilos of leaves a day. Right and they and as a group of maybe five to six paper pickers, they get $10 US dollars a day to share.

That's nothing and yet they have to pay for all their expenses out of that. So I stopped this time, not only to meet them, talk to them about their work, but to hear Have my travelers and myself pick those leaves with them to understand what is happening here, right? Because when you educate through experience, not just to documentation, you really get more of an appreciation. So every time I've spoken to these people, they remembered us this time again. But this time we got a little bit further. And when we documented, I paid them for their time, because they were taking time away from picking the leaves right? Now, some would argue how that is ethical.

So number one, it was asking for permission. Number two is documentation to prove that there's people out there in this world that don't live like us, that don't have the things that we still take for granted, like boiling a cup of tea, right? All of these things. And so my goal, being from Uganda supporting the Ugandan economy, is to show that it's not all the beauty that you only come to see, there are the deeper hidden parts that you must take notice of and pay attention to. And if you're coming to this country, support local tourism.

So it makes a difference when we support local tourism, because many companies aren't as stable as mostly that we can and locally owned, Eat Local, travel, local, all of that stuff. Because when you support the locals, the whole economy grows. And everybody benefits, right. But when you pay to travel to a place, and it's with international companies, nobody benefits. Yeah, so that's, I think, not just photography, but ethical travel in itself, sustainable travel, which I think goes hand in hand with ethical photography.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 26:50

Yeah, because you are, like you said, you're starting to understand how all of the pieces fit. Fit together. Yeah, there's so much in each photograph. And I actually remember being in Fort portal and meeting with a woman who had her child on her back who was picking tea. And that I mean, that was the first time I've ever seen tea grown. And to understand the size of a tea leaf, and the heat, and the amount of tea you have to pick and that you have to get by hand because otherwise it loses its quality. And, and it was really, it was a hugely important experience for me.

And when I see now when I see a field of tea leaves, I see all of those things like I know all of those things. And so I love that you talked about how that experience translates into a trip and travel and learning and, and really unpacking what one image can tell. And I think it's for me, I love to tell the story of a destination. And so this is really important to like, yes, that field was beautiful. That's all you had to share, right? Or this woman, how amazing it was that she had her child with her on her back, and her dress was beautiful. And it contrasted with the lead like, it could have just been that image. Right. But the story is so important.

28:16

Well, since you have mentioned Uganda, this was one of the things that led me on my path to the EU was my love for that country and the time I've spent there, but also the Cameras for Girls initiative that you have started, you mentioned that you work with marginalized females to teach them photography and business skills.

And I would really love to learn more about what that program is and, and, and the work that you're doing there. So I started this in 2018. And the reason is when I went to 2007 I went home for the first time, and I grew up listening to stories from my parents about how wonderful Uganda was, how wonderful life had been for us, how it's known as the pearl of Africa. Help you know everything right? But the reality of what I saw, the poverty of what I saw hit me like a ton of bricks growing up in Canada.

You're protected from all of that and you see homelessness, but it's not poverty the same way. But what I even saw more was the plight of females. You know, here I was in my 20s or your 20s or 30s. I can remember, I was meeting girls who had been married off at 14, because that's the norm and by the time she's in her 20s She's got five to seven children. She can't clothe, feed or educate because she might not have been educated.

Education is not free. But if a family has the money, they're going to educate their boys over their girls and girls are regulated to household duties for the most part. Now things are changing, right families are realizing that there is wealth put Putting a girl through school because she is going to support the family.

So I work with girls who are in university journalism programs. I work with two universities in Uganda for recruitment. And people will say, but if they went to university, they must have money. No, for the 90% of them, they've had to leave their families to be supported by an NGO just to get through high school and or university. And so, we do a four day workshop in the country, I give each girl a camera to keep. And then over the four days, I teach her how to use it, tell a story with it.

And on the fourth day, we do a field training exercise with a NGO that has the same themes of gender equality and female empowerment. So the girls can take everything they learned in the first three days and research and put a story together by the end of the fourth day. And by the fourth day, having not touched a camera, they're already working in manual. And I come home and phase two, phase three. And phase four starts. Phase two is a year-long online training platform where they go through monthly assignments. And every Friday, we do two hour training together. And then phase three, they learn how to put a resume cover letter or LinkedIn profile together. And I teach them how to sit for an interview if they've not gotten to that part yet. And then phase four, they get mentorship if needed.

So we've taught 47 girls so far in Uganda as of my last training, which was in June, and 10, in South Africa online, and I've got 85 across Africa, who are enrolled in the online training platform. And we became a charity just last September, so a year ago. And so I'm just looking forward to growing this and reaching more girls and women across Africa, to give them opportunities where none exists. And the reason for the journalism is that when they come out of school, they're 12, they have to own a camera and know how to use it. They don't have the means. So we fill that gap

Christine Winebrenner Irick 32:06

for you. Well, congratulations on finalizing being able to be operating as a charity, I know that it can be a process. I love that you're like you said that you're creating a gap that maybe some people wouldn't see with outside knowledge without inside knowledge of how that is working for the girls to go to university and then to be in the program. And then to be able to actually use that education and put it into practice that there still, you know, one more piece of the puzzle to fit in.

And I also really love that what this is doing is creating local storytellers, which kind of goes back to that, you know, selfie journalism, or whatever you want to call it. This is allowing these young girls to be able to tell their stories, which for me, this is like in my heart of hearts, this is why I exist is to create space for people to be able to tell their own stories and to know the value of their storytelling and the importance of it. And I just think that that's overcoming a lot, especially like you said in the culture of Uganda to empower women to be able to to express themselves in this way. And to reach that level of skill and expression. I think it's such an amazing journey.

33:29

It's amazing to watch them like blossom, and really come into their own and get the skills because we not only teach them photography, but we teach them digital marketing now. So they know how to put themselves out on social media, but also we teach them editing along with partner so and I forgot to mention the big thing is 60% of our girls now have full time jobs paid jobs. Right. So yeah, we're very proud of how far we've come on a very small budget. So we're just looking to grow.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 34:02

Yeah, so amazing. And another piece for that is, when you're looking at positions that are usually male dominated, those are the ones that are gonna have a higher and

34:12

yeah, and they don't have to have the skills. They don't have to have a camera, they don't have to know how to just get the job because they're males, right? whereas females have to have it all. And it's, it's, it's very daunting for them. It's very depressing, but I love their spirit. It just doesn't let them know, when you give them a tool it, they're like, boom, I'm going to take this more stem, most of them not all. I'm going to take this for all it's worth and keep going.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 34:40

Yeah, because, yeah, they know the value of that. Yeah, that gets that step that they've been given. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing that I just again, like I think photography and storytelling on their own are just so powerful, but then when you bring it into this environment, I just think it's For me personally magical, so I just think you and I learned about this, I wanted to go back a little bit to talk about when we are, you mentioned kind of respecting local customs and traditions when we photograph, how do we begin as travelers to understand cultural norms and these traditions, what questions can we ask ourselves ahead of time to make sure that we are engaging with culture in the in the most respectful way,

35:31

I think it's super important to do your research, right? If you're going traveling somewhere, learn everything you can about the culture, you know, that's number one, don't go traveling, not understanding who you're going to meet what you're going to see what the different languages are, how many different tribes there are, perhaps in Uganda, there's 54, in Tanzania, there's over hundreds, we met three separate and very distinct tribes in Tanzania that were all very different.

But it was so incredible to meet them and learn how, how they still subsist in, you know, rudimentary ways. Like they're still hunting with, you know, traditional bow and arrow, or they're making their own tools by fire, like, setting up their own, you know, fire what, in what happened, I was like, blown away, right?

It's doing your research, asking your guide for guidance, right? Because your guide is a local, they're going to tell you what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, some tribes will say, absolutely no photography, because they've never, they might invite you, because it's monetary exchange, and that's how they survive. But they don't want to exploit themselves. Like on camera, because they don't want the outside world coming in and changing their ways of living. That's a very important number, right? Because we know from colonialism, how that's happened, traditionally, over time, and it's still happening in very secular regions, right?

So I think, research and ask, if you don't understand something, ask and, you know, your guide will tell you not to assume, because, again, we're all different. We all come from different places, we all have different ways of practicing our cultures. So really appreciate what you're seeing. And if you're not sure, ask, I think that's number one. And number two, even when you get into a situation, or a place where you're not used to asking permission before picking up your camera, because without that, when you ask for permission, it shows you have respect, and it opens up that door for mutual respect.

Now, mutual understanding, even if you don't speak the language, there's still so many different ways to communicate. Right gestures do a lot, right? And so I think that's the basics to be honest with you. Yeah, not assuming.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 38:04

Yeah. And I think that how you said where you are, it's so easy to just kind of communicate what you're asking without communicating. Because many people have seen, obviously, in tourist destinations, have seen cameras, or even if you're in more remote regions.

I think there's still an understanding, or if you take a picture of, you know, a plant and then show them if your camera what you're doing there, it's a little sticky, because I think, then they can maybe understand that you're taking their picture, if they're not familiar with the technology, they don't understand the ramifications of what that picture can do or where it can go.

Because if you're not in somewhere where they have access to internet and computers and technology, then they don't know that this picture now could potentially be everywhere in the world, and I think

38:58

sold and sold, right. And if you're planning to sell an image, you have to have an image release, you have to write. So if that's your intention, before you even go traveling, you have that in your pocket, you pull it out. And if they don't know what they're signing, then you don't get them to sign it.

Because that's not ethical. And if the guy needs the guide's help, that's where the guide comes in. If the guy and they say no, it's no, right, that image just sits in your archives or goes on social media. That's like, but with permission. Right? Is that a permission piece? Yeah, I think that's so crucial.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 39:36

Yeah, and I think one other thing too, and this comes in with context and culture and understanding norms is safety in the relationship of photography, and I think even especially for children in photography, like there's so many questions that we can start asking ourselves about, is this appropriate? Is this respectful? Is this safe? Is this being exploitative? It's like,

40:02

free, especially when it comes to children. Because there's a lot of, you know, not to open up a different can of worms, sex trafficking going on, and especially in Uganda is a hotbed, right. And so when you innocently take a picture of a child, you think it's an innocent picture, but then you splice it on your social media, you don't know what somebody else is looking at, or looking for. Right? So I just think that we have to be very careful about how we portray imagery these days, where we portray it, and what story goes behind it.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 40:37

Yeah, well, yeah, I think that that's so many good questions for us to ask. I really do want to kind of be able to create a space where this feels like a very positive conversation, because I know a lot of this Yeah, can

40:54

be very negative, right? Yeah. But I would love for

Christine Winebrenner Irick 40:57

you to maybe share a story where you did have a really equitable exchange, where the photography allowed you to tell a story in a way that maybe it wouldn't have if you didn't use this premise of ethical photography. Do you? Um, you mentioned the Maasai. But do you have another story where you were able to kind of put this into practice? And it allowed you to tell it?

41:22

Well, I think the T Fields was a good experience, right? Because now it's not just about, hey, look at these beautiful T fields, there's a huge story behind it. And understanding, I think I tried to do that, regardless of where I go. Let me just think, Oh, my God, they will always come back to Uganda or Tanzania, but I think in Istanbul, so I went to Capitol Kia to do the air balloon, right and fair for three days, two nights.

And what I loved about the small town that I was staying in was a cave Hotel. After a long day, I decided to go out for dinner. And as I was walking down this trail, I came about these three girls, and they were distinctly dressed. One was clearly a Muslim, because she had the hijab, the and the two others were different. So I stopped them because I love to talk to different people. And I said, Excuse me, may I ask you a question.

First of all, I'm lost. So can you tell me why this restaurant is? So they guided me. And then second, I said, I noticed you're all differently dressed. And that was really interesting to me. I'm a photographer. And I would just like to learn more about you. And they told me that in this small town, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all live in harmony. And as a Muslim, who's gone to places where that's not the case. I was like, blown away.

So we sat there talking for 45 minutes, about how they live in harmony, what life is like in this small little town. Now, when I look at that image, and that was five years ago, it brings me right back there, right. And I didn't even pick up my camera while we were talking once. And after I finished, the girl said to me, will you take our photo, and it was because I was so blown away by the fact that this was I didn't even think about the photography, right? I was like, well, the crowd, why could I not? So I took a bunch of photos. And then I got their emails, and I sent it to them.

Because that's one thing I always do is either through the guide, or if I'm alone, if it's possible, I send them because I want to see my images, right? And they didn't have that opportunity of even having cameras because there's no, they don't have that much money there. Right. But they have the internet so they can see themselves. And after I took the image I showed them on the back of the camera, but it's not the same thing.

But that continued conversation and we stayed in touch for a while with one of the girls because I was just you know, we connected, connected to through discussion through that photo. But that photo now brings you back to so many years ago. And it's always those memories, but I can rest on the fact that I wasn't taking photos with no purpose. I was taking a photo with a purpose if that makes sense.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 44:18

Yeah. Yeah. Because to contrast that that story could have been you were lost. You saw them and they looked beautiful. You quickly snapped a picture because you were trying to figure out where you were going and you look back and you're like oh that's so amazing that you know these people all were so uniquely themselves but but I then I'm lost and I found the restaurant and then the restaurant was good like your story becomes a very different story.

Yeah, you pause and you connected and and then the other thing that I love about that when you create that space for connection and conversation is you allowed them to each tell their story, which is a going back to the same thing as talking to these girls in Uganda that They got to tell their story and express who they are and have that witnessed.

And that's very empowering and, and you know, their story from that experience might have been, I saw this woman walk by, no, she took our picture. But she didn't acknowledge us, but we kept walking. Now they're like this woman who recognized us, recognized us for who we are, and valued that and took the time to get to know us and understand our culture. And we had this great conversation.

And then she sent us pictures from Canada after you know, she returned home. So both ways that that story was written in as a beautiful exchange, and stead of a moment that just could have just been a pass and maybe a slight and maybe even an insult. And I think those are just those things that we're learning about what it can mean to be engaging differently as we travel.

45:54

Yeah. And also, as a traveler, now it gives you a richer experience, right? And those, those are the experiences that are going to last forever. Like when I'm old and gray, and I'm, you know, hopefully have my memories still, those are the things that are going to mean, more than the places or the monuments that I saw, with a ton of tourists that were blocking my view or whatever, right? Yeah.

But I'll tell you one funny story, which I think was the start to my thinking differently about how I take photos. So I was in Uganda. I think this was back in 20. Yeah, 2011 when I had gone for a wedding. And so I was doing a little bit of touring in Kampala. And one of my friends there, who was my travel partner, was taking me around town, and I saw these guys had just beheaded these chickens. And they had put the chickens in the trunk of the car, the blood was dripping. And I was like, Holy shit, that's just such an amazing image as a photojournalist, right? And I liked that it was far away, right? It was in one car, they were another. And I didn't ask for it. I did not ask for permission, I was just like, this is such an amazing shot, and I have to get it. As soon as I raised my camera, they had their machetes, and they were chasing us in the car.

And we had to take off and I was like, like, just escaping at the skin of our teeth. Because they were that close, right? That was the one that taught me like, holy shit, I should not have done that. Because I wanted the shot against all risk number one. And I did not respect them, or their culture. I did not ask for my permission. And that was the turning point for me. Right. And I did not get the shot. I'll never forget the image because it's something I've never seen before or since. But it didn't mean that I had to have the shot. So I think that's what you know, guided me on my ethics as not only a storyteller, photographer, but also leader of photos.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 47:57

When you were talking through that, it just reminded me of, you know, many places, if you're traveling by vehicle, you're seeing things outside out of your home, right as you're driving by. So for me, like again, in my mind, I would say like I would, I would kind of before I would take an image like even I usually like what I used to do is like smile on it, you could still like it's usually driving fast, because the roads are horrible, and the places is falling through.

So like the freeway smile, like sometimes kids will run to the car or Yeah, people will, like, kind of acknowledge that you're having a reciprocal exchange, right? And like, if you pick up your camera, and you just create a space for acknowledgement, I've taken a picture, but what do you mean, how does that look when you're in a street market? And you're taking pictures where there's lots of people and you're maybe not focusing on one particular person? That's it? How do you bring ethics into that? Because I think that's a really common thing for travelers is to get a general sense of a space, you are taking a picture that has people in it, but you aren't necessarily capturing one person's image should you be going out of your way to do that or where you're in the car and you can't How would you guide that

49:18

Different calls are difficult because there's many opportunities like those many times where we're driving in Uganda and the roads are like crap, as you said, and I'll see something right and I will always raise my camera. Pause because there is enough time the car is going so bloody slow to get over the damn potholes.

There is time to live, the camera looks them in the face and they usually will go like this. No, right? They'll always do this because they they're used to people just bombing by and taking photos. And so there is that time to pause before you take the photo. And then if they say no, put your camera back down, right. But I go through Nakasero market which is the law. Just market like a hustle and bustle is just an incredible marketplace where you can buy anything and everything in Kampala, Uganda. I will ask them like, you know, I'm going to be taking this photo you're in.

Can I take your photo? Yeah, they're always like that, because they're used to travelers, right? Sometimes they'll be like, No, absolutely not. And they'll turn their face or they'll say no, and you, you know, you, you keep walking. And sometimes we'll say yes, but you have to buy something from me. Fine, because it's a fair exchange. Right? So I think it's just that always having that discussion, or looking them straight in the eye and saying, This is okay. Last time, I was in Nakasero.

And this guy was like, what you're just gonna walk by without taking my photo? And I'm like, Okay, so right. So it's all because they're used to that. And I said, okay, and he said ticket ticket. And I said, Yeah, but there's other people. No, no, take it, take it. And they all looked and they said, Yeah, ticket, right. So it all depends on the situation and how you approach them. If you're just like this with a camera in front of your face all the time. Nobody can see your eyes, like, what does that say?

Nothing. You're not even trying to be? You're not. You're not even trying to approach them on an even level. You're not even trying to be in their sphere, right? Put that damn camera down, like just be you. And then they're more apt to say yes.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 51:24

Yeah. Yes. Which I think then goes like what we've said over and over as to the even exchange, like these people aren't living their lives for us to take a travel photograph. They're living their lives.