Episode 86- Nora Livingstone, Animal Experience International

Travel

Jul. 20

The 21st century has ushered in a new era of long- distance travel for many people. The internet has provided travelers with access to a wealth of information about new destinations, including opportunities to volunteer abroad. Thousands of people spend their time and money traveling the world in an attempt to discover new cultures and civilizations, while others question the sustainability and the morality of the industry.

Volunteer travel can be awesome, eye-opening and rewarding. But with many organizations, you do have to question: Whose best interests are really being served?

Volunteer travel has its roots in the "voluntourism" through which people volunteer on projects abroad. Volunteer travel has been reimagined as a social enterprise model with a focus on working within local communities and creating value for them, rather than for the volunteers themselves.

Some people have traveled the world to seek their fortune, while others have gone in search of a more well-rounded education.

Regardless of your reasons for wanting to ethnically diversify your travel experience, there is no doubt that many young travelers find themselves in the cross-cultural volunteering environment not knowing how to interact with the local community. Should they stick with the large group? Do they try to give money to every child begging nearby?

It is undeniable that for a lot of individuals and groups volunteer tourism has become an integral part of their experience. Why else would there be more than 250,000 volunteer trips documented each year? Volunteer travel can help you develop your connections with other people from another cultures through community service activities.

Volunteering abroad, especially in developing countries, has become a necessary experience for many people who label themselves as 'world citizens'. However, like any other growing industry, volunteer tourism brings with it new experiences and new problems.

Christine’s guest today is curious, an animal-lover and a feminist.

Nora Livingstone is the CEO & Co-Founder of Animal Experience International. Her work has taken her to over 45 countries, including Oman, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, and Mongolia.

Nora is a qualified Crisis Counselor and holds FEMA certifications in leadership and deployment during natural disasters.

Nora is also actively involved in the rise of Benefits Corporations and runs her own award-winning B-Corp, Animal Experience International. Nora is a Nature Canada, Woman for Nature, is a founding board member of the Julia Coey Memorial Foundation and the Women’s Advisory Council of JourneyWoman. Nora is also the host of Fanimal’s Animal Chat Time.

Nora and Christine talk about the ethics of volunteer travel, consent based tourism and what that means to her having a values align business and her commitment to addressing social issues, and how we can understand white privilege narratives that exist in companies like ours, that are run by white women.

This is an honest, vulnerable and thought provoking conversation that Christine deeply enjoyed having and hopes you enjoy listening to.

Join Christine for her soulful conversation with Nora Livingstone.

In this episode, Christine and Nora discuss:

What lead Nora down a path of travel and exploration?
How Animal Experience International started and why?
Why Nora felt like volunteer travel suited her best and how it aligned with her values
The ethics of volunteer travel
What is consent based tourism and why it’s important
What it means to have values align business and Nora’s commitment to addressing social issues
How we can understand white privilege narratives that exist in companies like Nora’s & Christine’s, that are run by white women

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

For more information about Nora Livingstone and Animal Experience International visit www.animalexperienceinternational.com/

Follow Nora & Animal Experience International on your favorite social platform: Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter

Join me for my Women’s Wilderness and Yoga Retreat in Alaska in March 2023!

We’ll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at Arctic Hive, owned by my friend Mollie Busby and her husband Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid. We’ll stay in beautiful cabins built by hand by our hosts, practice yoga in their yoga dome lovingly referred to as The Hive, with gorgeous views of the surrounding nature.

We’ll explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.

I only have 6 spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken. Hop over to the Lotus Sojourns website to book yours today.

Please share this experience with anyone you know would love this restorative adventure.

Want to learn more, you can listen to my Soul of Travel conversation, episode 67 with Mollie Busby

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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of this year’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.

About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Nora Livingstone (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

people, travel, conversation, tourism, animals, feel, community, ethics, places, volunteer, business, travelers, animal experience

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Nora Livingstone is an animal ethics expert and CEO of animal experience International and award winning B Corp. Her work has taken her to over 45 countries, including Oman, Sierra Leone, Guatemala and Mongolia. Nora is a qualified crisis counselor and holds FEMA certifications in leadership and deployment during national disasters. Nora is also actively involved in the rise of benefits corporations. She's a Nietzsche, Canada, women for nature, and founding board member of the Giulia cohee Memorial Foundation, as well as a member of the Women's Advisory Council of Journey women. Nora is also host of Animals Animal chat time.

Nora Livingstone is an animal ethics expert and CEO of animal experience International and award winning B Corp. Her work has taken her to over 45 countries, including Oman, Sierra Leone, Guatemala and Mongolia. Nora is a qualified crisis counselor and holds FEMA certifications in leadership and deployment during national disasters. Nora is also actively involved in the rise of benefits corporations. She's a Nietzsche, Canada, women for nature, and founding board member of the Giulia Cohee Memorial Foundation, as well as a member of the Women's Advisory Council of Journey women. Nora is also host of Animals Animal chat time.

In our conversation, Nora and I talk about the ethics of volunteer travel, consent based tourism and what that means to her having a values align business and her commitment to addressing social issues, and how we can understand white privilege narratives that exist in companies like ours, that are run by white women.

This was an honest, vulnerable and thought provoking conversation that I deeply enjoyed having and hope you enjoy listening to join me now for my soulful conversation with Nora Livingstone.

Welcome to soul of travel, I am really excited today to be sitting down with Nora Livingstone, who is the Co-Founder and CEO of Animal Experience International. I had the privilege of hearing her speak in a bee tourism group meeting and was immediately drawn to her passion and dedication. And she has so much to offer, I think this is a listening community. So I'm excited to dive into this conversation. Welcome, Nora.

03:27

Oh, thank you so much, Christine. I'm super happy to be here.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 03:31

Thank you. And so for those of you listening to animal experience International is a certified B Corp that was founded in 2012. And from this I get you matched clients who want to gain animal related volunteer experience to the right experience, and really focus on the ethics of volunteer travel and how we can create these experiences in the most responsible way. So I'm so excited to just hear more about what that looks like in action. As we begin, Nora, I would love to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are in the space of travel right now. Yes,

04:13

So in the space of travel right now, I am someone who is trying to get people to think more. Well, I have always loved animals. I have always loved to travel with the joke that I tell people all the time and I will never get sick of it telling me how old you are without saying how old you are. And I grew up in West Germany. And so I have always had itchy feet. I've always wanted to help other people travel because I just see the immense difference it had in my life and my perspective. And so running AI was a dream I never thought I would have and I love it because being the CEO of AEI means that I can make sure all of our programs are safe. Our ethics are authentically beneficial, we became a B Corp for that reason, the last two years have been hard. But I have always been hopeful and always delighted that when we get back to travel, when we get back to our center, we're able to think about travel, without the Asterix beside it without going this felt good at the time, but maybe not really. Yeah, that's such a powerful statement to add, I feel like so many of us have kind of been examining those parts of our businesses and parts of the industry and really trying to strengthen what we're offering. And I feel like also a lot of people have really reconnected to the values and the passions that they had when they started their businesses

Christine Winebrenner Irick 05:44

that sometimes got a little bit lost in the process of actually running a business and meeting client demands and maybe starting to lean more towards what they were seeing trends were or what clients needed. And maybe some of those real important values had gotten lost, or were just not as prevalent in their business model. And I think anybody who was experiencing that on a small scale really, was like, No, this is why I started my business. I'm recommitting, I'm really dedicated to that. And for those businesses that were already value driven, it was just really the time to, like, even become more big and bold in how we were presenting that. So I have loved witnessing that that's been something that's always been things that I have been drawn to naturally, but I'm really loving to see it being shared in more and more spaces. I would love to first before we get into AI would love to understand a little bit more about who you are and how travel found you. And really what led you to, you know, understanding this need and then beginning to shape this business.

07:01

Yeah, so I think, you know, I was so lucky to travel my whole life, my dad was a career soldier in the Canadian military. And so we lived in Europe. My family really took advantage of the fact that we were in Europe and bought a VW Westfalia and we drove around seeing a whole bunch of different countries. When we moved to Canada, we bought another Westphalia and painted up blue called a blue thunder, one up the Alaska Highway down through Alaska, across Canada, down through Montana, sorry, and I just really like new my whole life that travel was valuable to me, because I have a brother. But there's, we're only four. And so I just knew from a young age that like my perspective would be only four of us, we were really close a small family. And so seeing all these different places, hearing different languages, seeing what people look like, what they eat, and were always fascinated me and always made me just think, very wonderfully, that I'm never alone. There are so many other people out there that have really interesting ideas. And then also, I'm never alone. Because if I'm thinking of something, there must be someone else on the planet who thinks the same way. I can't be the only person that likes normal balls. There's a whole community of us. So when I was in university, it was when Hurricane Katrina happened, and I was very lucky because the internet was new at the time, and I found out about a group called Best Friends Animal Society. And they said, If you come down to help do animal rescue, feeding, grooming husbandry, you can stay for free. You're like staying on a cot in, in an old arcade, but we'll feed you and we'll figure it out. And that was sort of my first step into kind of international volunteering, and really being of like service. Rather than saying, I want to come down here and I want to wrangle dogs and look like a hero. I'm like, What did these people really need? And then what did the dogs and cats really need? And they need people to like to clean up their ears and make their food and things like that, the animals, not the people. It's an important distinction.

09:17

And then after university I went to school for environmental studies and anthropology and I was the first person in my family to graduate university and my family kept on asking what I would do with it. And I was like, ``That's for future Nora to figure out. I have no idea. I again was lucky enough to be able to travel and I knew I wanted to volunteer when I traveled because I just felt like it was such a privilege to go somewhere I wanted to give back. And so I went through Nepal and Thailand, Korea, China and Hong Kong. And it was in that traveling Then I volunteered with some people groups and I volunteered with some animal groups.

And I ended up not feeling very good about volunteering with people, I was a brand new graduate from university, I didn't have the skills to really help people in a real way. And, I didn't have the skills to protect my heart and everything in a real way. And so working with animals, knowing I wasn't a vet, I wasn't doing any high level medicine, I was there just to clean up elephant poop just to again, clean the ears of dogs that always comes back to that. And so I came back to Canada, still not knowing what I was going to do. And I started, I was a volunteer coordinator at a wildlife center. And that's actually where I met my business partner. I was there for a couple years. And after I left, she asked me, Hey, have you ever thought of running like a charity or a business because I already know, telling all my friends to travel is the best. It's so important.

Ethics are so important. When you travel, make good choices, not only for the people and animals you're working with, but also for your hearts, you don't want to come back and go. That was growth. And then also for tourism in general. Like we just don't want more people that look like me. I'm a White Goddess of Canadian descent. We don't need more people like that going around the world saying I know how to help everyone. So yeah, Heather said, You always talk about the ethics of volunteering. What if we did it for animals? She's a veterinarian, she has a lot of that. Students that ask her about international placements. And the other joke and make all the time is my famous last words were a business, how hard can it be? That was 2011. And, yeah, we started with the programs that I had volunteered on before I went to Guatemala a couple years prior. And Paul called them and said, if you remember me, I have this kind of big idea. Do you want to be partners? And? Yeah, the rest is? Is history and sometimes hard history? Yeah. There are so many good things there.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 12:15

I love business. How hard could it be? Because I feel like I mean, people really encourage entrepreneurship, and people that are really passionate and purpose driven, it really makes sense for that. And so you just like to charge ahead. And then you're just like standing there by yourself being like, what did I just do? It can be like such a painful, but valuable path. And we'll talk about this later, when you become committed to something like becoming B Corp certified, which is a huge process, which I think it feels like most people go into a little bit blindly. And maybe thank goodness, because if they knew at the end, they wouldn't start at the beginning.

There's a lot more education and support around that now, I think but it's definitely something I haven't done. I just, I have such a new business, I've tried to create my brand, knowing that that's my end goal, which is also really helpful. Like, I'm not hopefully gonna have to go back and change too many things like I can start to implement that as I began. But then the other thing about, you know, we've already mentioned a couple times, but really focusing on ethics. And I think, when I started in the industry, just a little over 20 years ago, this was something that was really subtle in a business, you know, you might have your corporate social responsibility page on your website, if you had a website, even then, you know, it would be like, here's this this side thing we do, here's this thing we can talk about, like to just be really proud of this, this one part of our business. And I really love that you go onto your website, and it is very clear from the beginning, immediately that that is a part of what you are offering people who are traveling with you.

And I just for me, again, gets so excited that we're at a place where we don't have to, like sneak our values into our businesses, we can really say like, this is actually why we're here. And this is why we want to serve you. So I would love to start to talk about that a little bit more. I know you mentioned you were working with people as volunteers and then with animals and that you really felt he wasn't able to serve the people that you were working with. And I know that a lot of people who volunteer and travel, walk away with that feeling at the end of the day that they think, you know, I really went into this wanting to create change. I wanted to be of service. We also wanted to do something for ourselves that feels good, right? That's a part of our motivation. And then you realize, you know, you're going to be there for a short amount of time. We'll start to think about what that looks like, over time? Maybe, you know, if you're volunteering somewhere, you come in and you barely figure it out, and then it's time to leave, or you form attachments. And you leave.

And you start thinking about the people who have this intermittent support and who have this intermittent emotional connection that they have to like ebb and flow with, what was your response to that? or what have you seen talking to other travelers coming to look for a more ethical volunteer experience?

15:30

Yeah, yeah, I think those are all such good points, right. Like, I think, I think the reason that AEI exists is because the counter exists. And we, of course, want people to go on our trips. But we put all the information in the forefront. So even if people don't go on their trips, they know that not all tourism is ethical, and not everything is created equal. And so I think what we really try to explain to people is, all of us want to have these big, beautiful, monumental shifts in our lives. And they can happen if we are doing small things, or big things, because it is the mindset on our side. And things will feel better, because they will be better. And there'll be ethics, if we are, if we're thinking about the epics, all of AIS programs work directly with local leaders.

And so it's never me, as someone who has an environmental studies in Canada degree, I don't go to somewhere like Kenya and say, This is how you should plant trees. I don't go to Sierra Leone and say, This is how you help dogs. But what I do say is I don't know anything. And please shoot me like a five year old. There are real nuanced problems here. And how do we deal with those specific problems? How do we specifically target them and change them? And how do we have people that are not professionals do that? And oftentimes, it is. So I have been again, so lucky, I've been to a lot of countries, I've never been to a country that doesn't have people who love animals. And so already I tell all of our clients, everyone that shows up, you are not there to save the animals of a country, you are there to make sure that people who were volunteering, who were working before, during and after your program, have that support. And knowing that incremental change does not feel good.

No one likes going to therapy and going like oh, yes, this tiny thing changed. But it's through the tiny changes that these massive shifts happen. And you know, you've been in tourism for 20 years. And so you can see that there very rarely is one thing that changes travel for the better. Over a number of years there have been so many small things that we don't even realize the shift has happened. And it's really too poor, quote Martin Luther King, it is Jr. to the mark, the arc of the moral universe is quite long, and it does bend towards justice, but it is through those incremental changes. So all of that is kind of vague and esoteric, but what it comes down to is when I talk to the volunteers, it is really making sure that they understand the value and the actual authentic benefit of the work they're doing. So does it feel huge and life changing to cut up a mango to give to an orphaned howler monkey in Guatemala? Yes and no. Is it helping the whole species?

Yes, because genetic diversity is important in howler monkeys. Is it helping that one? Howler monkey? Absolutely, you're changing its life it gets to eat. And is it changing your life? Yes, it is. And you're changing your life forever. Because for the rest of your life, people ask you about howler monkeys. For some reason you have a shirt that says I want howler monkeys to ask me about it. And then you get to say I picked up a mango for a howler monkey. And this is why it was important to them, to me and to the whole group. At the center, it meant there wasn't a veterinarian who was doing it. The veterinarian was making enrichment and enclosures and doing high level medicine. I was making sure they could do their job. And for the rest of my life. I can feel good about that. And I think, you know, to your point earlier, there are times that people volunteer on human projects that end on animal current programs as well that they're not fully trained for the high level professional work they're doing and they leave the program.

Yeah, I got to do surgery. I got to do something big. But was it privilege and entitlement that got me there and do I feel good about telling other people? It's that shift in tourism, that we're looking at the entitlement of travelers, and we're saying, We have this great privilege to go and spend money in other countries and support great programs. So let's support those professionals while getting our hands dirty and something that we don't feel bad about. And actually Jen genuinely is helping. It's not busy. It's not busy work. It's not a task just like so you can have an Instagram picture. Take the Instagram picture and tell me and tell your friends how ethical it is. And that will ripple out for other people to talk about ethics.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 20:42

Hey, it's Christine. Interrupting this episode for just a minute to invite you to join me for my Lotus sojourns, women's wilderness and yoga retreat in Alaska in March of 2023. We'll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at the Arctic hive owned by my friend Molly Busby and her husband, Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid will stay in beautiful and cozy cabins built by hand by our hosts practice yoga in their yoga dome, lovingly referred to as the hive with gorgeous views of surrounding nature will explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled. Connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment. Enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals, all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year. I only have six spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken.

I'd suggest pausing this episode and hopping over to the lotus sojourns website to book yours today. Please share this experience with anyone you know who would love this restorative adventure. Want to learn more? You can listen to my soul of travel conversation with Molly Busby, check out episode 67 Now let's hop back to our soulful conversation so many good things so many good things I love I'll start with the first the Instagram photo and and the story and the context. I think that's so powerful. I feel like that is a conversation I've had a lot also over the last few years, in part because it's a super pain point for me, the Instagram world of travel, I don't understand.

And like one of the one trip I took after not having traveled for a while with young kids at home and hadn't really been fully immersed in that culture in action. I thought I was gonna die. It was just so overwhelming for me, that level of entitlement that I felt like I was witnessing, not honoring culture and place and the sacredness. I happen to be in Bali and really was on sacred land much of the time we witnessed this happening and it just tore at me in my soul. And so I love that you are speaking to your travelers about okay, we would love for you to share this experience. And here's how this can also be a tool for education, here's how we can provide context to our experience so others can understand what we're here for, what we're doing, the impact we're making. And it doesn't have to be done in a like, you know, in such a way that it feels like, dark or heavy or you know, like impossible, like we really can share the possibility of these experiences. So I really love that. And also just creating a mindset for travelers heading in. I think that's also so important. I talk a lot about that with my travelers at Lotus sojourns.

Like, before you even choose to travel with me, let's think about why you're traveling what you want out of experience, who you envision yourself being on the other side, which I would imagine would be really profound in terms of volunteer experience, like we have an idea of who we think we're going to be on the other side of this trip. And like, can we talk about that in a way that maybe shifts that expectation to a more real version? Or maybe we need to amplify that or, you know, maybe it's it's not about this kind of like holistic idea, maybe you really just want to be someone who was confident enough to travel to Guatemala confident enough to interact with animals and community and like, if that's your intention, I can't even imagine I'm so excited for that person on the other side of that journey.

But like if we unpack some of that before we traveled during and after, that also really amplifies the value You have from an experience like that? How has that changed the trajectory of an experience for people when you really talk to them about what they want out of an experience and what they're going to get? And how do you have those kinds of conversations?

25:16

Yeah, so how it works at AEI is that everyone applies. And then everyone talks with me and it's brilliant as well. Because when we sort of onboard our programs and create partnerships, I go to all the placements first to make sure that it takes about two years of talking. So that weeds out quite a few people that aren't in it for the sustainable long run. But then when I talk to all of our volunteers, I can say specifically, this is where you're going, this is who's picking up from the airport, this is the food you're eating, what you should pack. And this is the work you're doing.

And so I think creating that mindset, creating those expectations, and really like sometimes needing to tear down some unrealistic expectation or a bias or a privilege point that was that was not seen before. And I love doing it because I so believe in the work that we're doing. And I believe that if we know the importance of the work, then we're going to just have a much better time. If we go thinking that we are going to be the saviors that completely change Costa Rica and how they interact with turtles, like we're gonna have a bad time.

But if we go with the idea that we're going to learn from these local leaders, we're going to understand this community more we're staying with all of our homestays our local women that love turtles, one of our homestays, we met her because we were in a boat, doing some turtle work, and she thought we were poachers. And so she called the cops on us. And we're like, that is the dedication we want in a home theme. Others please. You care about turtles, you care about people you are going to call it in. And I love that. And so like, these are the things that we talk about when we when we should be talking, we talk about tourism, if we're going to say in North America on Turtle Island, that if we're going to recognize that we are on traditional lands of indigenous people, if we are going to say that black lives matter.

And I think that we should, we should say that everywhere we go, no matter where we are, black lives should always matter. And we are always on the traditional lands of someone else. And so I think oftentimes what happened in tourism is people went away to not leave their morals, but they wanted to just, you know, have a vacation and not have to think about things. The good thing I think about AI is if you want to have that vacation, like I do all the thinking for you. So you don't have to go through everything. I encourage people to think about ethics.

But if you just want to like you're a B Corp, I see that you have a quantifiable benefit, awesome, I just want to see a sea turtle, that's great. But if you want to have a little more depth, then you very easily can. And I think that is so cool. And it means that no matter what all the volunteers that I speak to in these interviews, are going to be changing themselves sometimes a little bit, sometimes a lot, but also changing tourism. Because we are changing this market, from people who just wanted to go away to people who are realizing, you know, all these ethics that I had at home, very much can come with me, I don't have to have an experience to just check it off and feel weird about it later, I get to follow. Everywhere you go. There you are. And so I get to be fully present in all of my ethics in all the things I believe in no matter what country I'm in.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 28:56

Oh my gosh, that's also good, too. I feel like my listeners are gonna be like, Okay, we get it, Christine. But I was just thinking through that process, like, I always talk about travel instead of being this, this means to escape this means, this means to connect and to like, be immersed. And I love that bringing your values with you brings who you are with you, because I actually think the traditional model of tourism hasn't allowed for that to happen.

And the other thing I was thinking about in that same kind of vein is that as a young traveler, I would have all these experience and I didn't have the language or the context to understand I feel like we're in such an amazing time right now to be bringing all of this in to conversations about travel, that our experiences can become even more powerful, but I remember like traveling somewhere and you know, wanting to take a picture and then feeling something inside of me that was question Seeing that picture.

And I didn't know what that was. And I just thought, Well, I'm just weird, or I don't know, I didn't know how to unpack that. And then being somewhere and maybe being invited to see a sacred ceremony and thinking, again, just having that feeling and that questioning, and I didn't, I didn't have words for it. But now we're learning about privilege. And we're learning about, you know, colonialism, we're learning about situations that are extractive, we're learning about all of these ways that we have been engaging with the world without the language for and we can also apply this to travel. And I think this just opens up the magic for me, because I have a sociology degree. I'm obviously really driven by ethics and morals and values. And so I'm just like, how this is like candy for me to think about, like, being able to explore this for travelers.

So when you are looking at this, I mean, you mentioned your dedication to black life, Black Lives Matter and how you bring that into the travel experience. You talk about your values with the core. What does that mean, for your brand? And what do you think that creates for your travelers in terms of maybe even conversations that you're having? And how do you feel like that, in itself? is adding value to the travel experience?

31:28

Yeah, I think, um, you know, exactly like baby Christine and baby Nora, we traveled somewhere, and we just didn't have the language. And then we didn't have a safe space to ask about it. And I think and I hope that is what you know, some of this could be considered virtue signaling. And I'm okay with it. I want people to see the virtue of AI I have. I wear a rainbow bracelet every day. So people know I'm an ally. very plainly, on our website, it says Black Lives Matter.

And we will keep that up forever, because they will always matter. And we have a language not acknowledgement on our website as well to say like, this is a safe space for not only people that look like me, but also don't look like me, but to ask those questions. And we have, we have so much work so many words on our website for those conversations. So people aren't, if people want, they can read about it in like, the cover of darkness, because they don't want to ask questions and look silly. But I think that our website is has so much information that people know that we're a safe space that we can say, like we we believe this fully in, in all of our being that we made it into a company that I mean, Heather, every single piece, every single word on our website, we wrote together, every single contract, every rule we have for AEI we got to make.

And so it gets to be exactly what we want it to be. And that space that gets to change as well. Black Lives Matter the movement didn't exist the way that it does now in 2012, when we started, and so when the you know, the me to movement, land back Black Lives Matter when the civil rights movements started. To be really on the forefront. It was so exciting, because it was stuff that we had been talking about for a long time. And it was stuff that we wanted to not just be in business, but then to be in leisure, and how exciting that it's not just a land acknowledgement that exists somewhere because we have to do it as a business. We don't have to but some, some businesses will say they do.

But it makes people think in when they are at their jobs and their professional people when they're at home and they're relaxing when they're on vacations and they're having leisure. We're always thinking about our privilege. We're always thinking about how, how deeply lucky we are to be here and the responsibility we then have. And I love having these conversations because it is generation Zed that is doing so much teaching and like pushing so much of this forward and saying, you know, millennials, you did a great job. Thank you. But you know, we have this a little bit more. And so I love traveling. It is such a diverse age group that we have so many people saying like, this is how it was we always kind of felt icky about this. This is how it was: we didn't know that we felt icky and then there's people saying there is a better way and that better we can be right now. It is very simple to have those signals to have those conversations and those conversations, I think is how tourism does move. foreword and does get out of this black hole. That was the shameful history of white, white privilege, white supremacy, othering, things like that. I think it will always have that history, but it doesn't have to have that present or future.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 35:19

Yeah, and I, I think that the thing that is so amazing about this is, like you said, there's so much space for conversation and exploration and discussion. I think the other thing that's so important is creating a space where it's okay to not already know what you're talking about before you start talking about it, which I think has been really tricky, especially the last couple of years, I felt like, like you said, as these movements really started to come to the forefront, there also became a lot of people who have been experts talking about this for a long time, there have been people about whose identities are really wrapped up in these experiences in a way that that we can't all fully understand one another.

And the conversation sometimes starts to feel really big and important and impossible. And so like trying to break that down so that we feel like we can be a part of it, that we can make a mistake as we're trying to navigate and understand. I know for myself, like I had a huge freeze about some of these things that like before, I felt like I could talk about it, because I felt like nobody really had an answer. And not that there's clear answers now. But it started to feel like there were more, more ways to do it right than to just like, be in it and be confused. And so I just was like, oh, let's now I'm stopping to talk about these things. And then that felt really bad for me, because this has been a place of curiosity and advocacy that has been a part of who I am since I was. I mean, very young, I just grew up on an Indian reservation in Montana. And I was just like, keenly aware of conversations that were happening around me, differences and similarities.

And I kept really trying to figure it out. Like I could just, I can still imagine my little brain just being like, I feel like maybe we should be acknowledging this or talking about this, or did you notice how you know, this exists this way. And this exists this way. Like, again, this is just this kind of sociological part of my brain that went around the world, like looking at it like a special TV channel that I didn't really understand. So I think it's really I love so much like you said that your website can kind of be this reading in the dark starting to understand. And then we can engage in conversation, and really grow through the experience. And then you start traveling, and then you witness something new, and then you've created a space for this conversation. I would like to talk about what I know, this is something kind of, again, as an extension of this conversation. You and I both run businesses that are values driven, we are really creating a space for conversation and connection. And I have had the conversation with you briefly with other colleagues when we look at White Privilege narrative that exists, and being a white woman running a company that wants to create change. So it seems like all of a sudden, and not all of a sudden, but my awareness all of a sudden, is should I be doing this? Should I be giving this to someone else to do?

Am I allowed to stand up in certain spaces and have certain conversations is just the element of being who I am causing a problem or creating a trigger? Or you know, there's just new awareness around what it means to be a white woman who is working in social impact and that conversations that we're starting to have. So how has that shown up for you? What have you talked through? And do you have any advice for other women who maybe are really passionate about this? How do we start to unpack this in our own conversations and in our minds?

39:10

Oh, I think my very first bit of advice is perfection is a lie by white supremacy and the patriarchy to get us to not even try. If you're not going to be perfect, don't try and power. It is so powerful to apologize and say I didn't know. I didn't know because I plainly didn't or because I'm privileged and I didn't have to know. And we're seeing this right now in Canada with the 215 and Kamloops, the children who were with massive air quotes found at the residential schools here.

And it has been for the last year we've been finding more children and I say massive air quotes because no mother has ever forgotten she's had a child, the children were forcibly taken away, and they didn't come home. And we as a nation knew, but we didn't talk about it. And then we had a truth and reconciliation. time we had this impact. We talked about it, but we didn't really talk about it. And so, the last half a day was actually very heartening. It's on July 1, we like fire flags, we do all these things. And it was kind of explained throughout Canada, you wouldn't have a barbecue if your neighbors were grieving the loss of their child. And, sorry, it's a bit emotional. And I guess I shouldn't say sorry, it should be. But I think this is at home. But this has happened all over the world because of white supremacy, because of patriarchy. And tourism is you being you, sometimes inviting yourself into another community and sometimes being welcomed and sometimes being welcomed under coercion. And it is for us to apologize for when it was under coercion.

And for us to say, am I actually being invited? And what am I doing? Am I doing what I would want someone to do for me? So I'm going into this community, and I am volunteering with dogs, and I am taking away a veterinarians professional job to pretend I'm a vet, and then I'm leaving in two weeks. Is that what you would want someone to do in your community? Obviously not. And that is what happened a lot in volunteer tourism. And so I think that there, you know, there, there needs to be and there should be a space where we apologize for the roots. And we wait until that apology is accepted.

And, and I don't think that means we, you know, we don't live our dreams, we don't start these businesses, we don't work in tourism, it is we wait for that community to accept our apology. And we go to another community and say, Well, how does this work here?'' And this also works with our clients, we if we are looking on Instagram, and all and we're, we're flipping through, I'm so old, I'm scrolling is the word that the kids use, and I should do if we're scrolling and all of the faces we see are white. Like that's, you know, it's a low hanging fruit, but it is an important fruit to pick, we must look at different travelers, we must follow educators and we must listen, we must read the books of people that say this is how white supremacy shows up. We as white people have all this privilege. And that means we need to apologize for all the ways that we took advantage of it.

But it also means we have a responsibility to share our privilege. And that is what I think that is what AI is doing with our partners. When we say we only work with local leaders, it means I have the privilege to have a website in Canada and understand it well. I wouldn't say that I understand SEO but to understand SEO and get people on trips. And it is my privilege to do a job that I love but it is my responsibility to make sure that the people I work with on the ground are getting ethically paid, have a voice and can say no, we don't want volunteers right now. Yes, we do want volunteers and this is the work we want them to do. I think everyday activism is just listening and often apologizing and then listening again. Yeah,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 44:00

oh my goodness. My heart just wants to catch up for a minute. So I like processing. I can't even think of the next question. But um, yeah, I just think that's so amazing. And then I really think like you said the asking and listening and apologizing and the conversation it really all just comes back to that that I think for so long it was so one sided and there we we didn't recognize or weren't aware of or weren't in conversation with the impact that we're having from a cultural and environmental standpoint. And and now we we know this and now that conversation is so important and and I really remember I don't know how long ago it was but when I first heard about community based tourism and when people I was learning from more saying it starts with asking the community, how they want to engage with outsiders and what how they want tourism to benefit their community and how tourism doesn't benefit their can Unity. And I just was like, mind blown.

I'm like, Well, of course, like, you also wouldn't go to your friend's house without asking, like, can I stop by and pick something up? My child is sick, do you still want me to come, just having the basic courtesy and respect as a guest. And this is also something I have also really always thought of myself as a guest somewhere. And I probably have been more hesitant to engage than maybe even I needed to be. But I was so conscious of the fact that it was a privilege for me to be in many of the places that I've been in. And to really witness the impact that I was having. I remember hiking somewhere like days into the mountains in Thailand, and walking into this village, and it was a village we weren't necessarily meant to be in. But the trip had gotten rerouted because of a social issue that had happened on the trip before mine. And the government was like, bringing travelers to different areas. So when they were very excited, because I hadn't seen travelers for a while, they also came up with these, like garbage bags full of things like Cheetos, and Doritos and stuff.

And I was like, I just remember that moment, this this, like this wrong thing was going off. And again, I was like, I don't know what's the wrongness? But like, I know, I should be asking a question. And, you know, I don't know if the question was, should we be coming here more often? Do you need us here? Have we altered you know, how you think you need to interact with us because of someone else's needs. And like I actually desperately don't want to read those. I would love to know, like, what's a local snack? And, you know, all these things were happening in my mind. And I just again, like think that, like you said that the conversation, the connection that the inquisitiveness it's like, all these things that actually become the magic of travel are really important parts of travel, that when we start asking those questions, and maybe we're scared to ask those questions, because it's going to reveal that we've done something wrong, we're gonna learn that we've had an impact that we wish we didn't have. But at the same time, it creates that connection and the space for progress. And I just think that being able to travel, since I've started to have more language for what I've experienced in the past, and more language for what I want in the future. It's opened so many more doors for connection and purpose and value. Absolutely, absolutely.

47:36

So we made up a term called consent based tourism. And it is really, it is just that we don't always have language we don't really understand. But thankfully, we're all learning more and more about consent. And we're all understanding consent more and more. And so it came through the pandemic. I was giving a lot of talks to universities and colleges. And one day I kind of just said, like, oh, you know, like consent, and I was like, Wait, and it was that thing that just like, Oh, it's so easy. Of course, consent should be a pillar of everything we do. But we had just never talked about it in that way. And consensus sort of thought in this other way. But, you know, when I hear you speak, I just think even more about the thing I invented. But when we talk about consent based tourism, it's sort of like a triangle. There are three actors. And the first I say is like the local community. Are they? Is it a full body? Yes. Do they actually want you there? During the pandemic, there were a number of countries that were saying, tourists could come and they wanted tourists to come. And then I would call our local communities and our partners and say, Do you want to earth and they would say, No, we cannot keep people safe.

Please do not. We need tourism, but we cannot have it right now. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I'll listen. And then because we work with animals, the other side of the triangle is the the animals and this is something that I in part, try to impart to everyone that I talked to, is the experience, the interaction that you're having with the animal, you can tell it's consensual because they can leave. They're not in a cage. They're not on a tether. They're not on a leash, if they're a domestic animal, it's a little bit different. But for wildlife, if you are walking down the beach and someone has parrots in a cage, and you get to like touch it or take a picture of it, is that a consensual interaction?

Of course if not, if a parrot is on a tree and you are talking to it and you know kind of squawks back and you take a picture that's consensual it can leave at any time. And so it's a really easy way again, if you're not traveling with the ER you're just traveling you're not sure if something looks really good with animals, you know if it is. If it has chains, not consensual, it's gonna make you feel gross later. And then the third corner is yourself, you know, you keep on saying you have this feeling and you weren't sure. And like, that's your self that is your truest self not consenting to the experience, and saying, I don't know what it is, and don't have the language. I haven't spent 10 or 20 years thinking about the ethics of society and philosophy. So I don't have the language, but my heart knows that it shouldn't be here. And later, I should ask questions. Because if I ask a question, now, maybe I'll feel bad, but I will feel bad no matter what the truth will come out. And if I asked it, now, maybe there can be a remedy.

Now, maybe something can happen that, there can be reconciliation, down the road, I may not ever go to that country, see those people have those individual humans with me again. And so it is about all your interactions in life, all of them should be consensual, and when you're traveling, it doesn't mean you're on a tour of us, someone else's driving every single interaction can also be conceptual. And it can seem really weighty, and it can seem really heavy. But when you get a full body, yes, from another human, from a community, from an animal, it's amazing. And you don't have that Asterix of feeling not great. You go, this is what travel should be because this is us communicating together. And you know, just being humans and, and truly sharing. And I think that is what I get really excited about when I talk about because it is based on tourism or ethics or anything when people have those stories of an animal that went up to me and nuzzled and then ran away. And I was like, yes. And for the rest of your life, you will have that magical feeling, not that I swam with a dolphin. It felt kind of weird, I don't tell people about it, you don't have shame, when everyone is consenting.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 52:05

I'm like, gosh, I just feel like, okay, so again, like, and I'm loving how this is really not just applicable to tourism. It's such a broad reaching conversation. But this is also so amazing to me that it can be in this space that we can be having these conversations as well. So and I as you mentioned, like this, I really want to I know that a lot of what we've been talking about maybe can sound weighted and difficult or you know, it's like not people like spend all my energy in that one I am thinking about traveling, but as you mentioned that that yes experience, and what that feels like.

And again, like kind of going back to the experience of this person cutting up the mango and in the way they wanted to show up in community and what they really wanted out of their experience. And then when they have that authentic, meaningful connection, how they get to feel after it is like, there's nothing on this planet like that. And when I started to create loads of sojourns, those were the experiences that I began to draw on those like full body, yes, those I cannot believe I just had such a powerful mutual exchange with someone as I traveled that I, I can't stop thinking about it. Like that's, that's what I want my travelers to have. And I really feel like all of this, like frontloaded excavation, is what creates those experiences. So I'm so grateful for brands like yours that are doing this for travelers, like you said, they can show up, and they're gonna get this in rehearsal. It's been created for them. Like, that's also what I'm trying to do. And we invite you into the process and the conversation and the understanding of how that becomes an experience that feels so much better. And if you don't want to do that, just know, it's already happened. And you just get the benefit of all of the stuff that we've already done. So for you like, what is that really?

What does that mean to you? Like, what does it mean for you to offer that I know that when you've sent in your information as to me and one of the hashtags you use in your businesses, hashtag Live Your Dreams. I feel like we're both people that really get to do that. Like, obviously, I hope people listening can tell that we are super passionate about this. This wasn't some random thing that we fell into. It's both pretty out there like not very common career paths that people are like I run and an ethically minded volunteer animal travel program that I probably don't know anyone else that would answer that as what their career is. What does it mean for you to get to do that in your life? And how does that extend to your travelers? Yeah,

55:05

I, you know, when we were first thinking about hashtags and things like that, living your dreams seemed really flippant and sort of cheesy. But then the more I thought about it, the more I thought, truly, almost everyone on Earth loves animals. And when we're younger, you know, we have our little farm animals, and we dream of how big whales are, and we love horses. And it truly is a dream for people to no matter what your background be able to touch, look at being in service with these animals that we've always kind of thought were amazing. I think it's an unfortunate lie that a lot of people are told to believe is that the only people that can help animals are veterinarians.

And so they follow their dreams and their passions, and they love their life. But there is always that sort of like, Oh, but I just love cancer, I just, oh, yeah, dolphins are so neat. And so we get to have people live a dream that isn't just seeing these animals, but is like authentically benefiting them and having these experiences forever. You know, the little like, baby inside of you gets to go like, I can't believe this is happening. And then the adult in you goes, it's happening. And I'm doing it in the best way. And it really means like, every time I write it, I truly think like I'm living my dream that I didn't realize existed. I didn't know like i Yeah, but like all through school, what do you want to be when you grow up? I don't know, something. I always love animals. And I think that it is so deeply cool to have been to all the placements.

And so I know all the families that they're going to meet. And I know all of the animals, most of the species because they should be gone by the volunteers should be there. But I know the species that they're going to interact with. And just knowing that if it was just me, living my life, and every couple of years, I went on a trip I would help these animals, but knowing that my impact is greater, because I'm sending people on these trips, and knowing that the impact is always ethical. And I am always helping these families who had me in their house who talked to me for two years before I visited them. It truly feels like they're my family now. And so you know, it is a dream to think that I have been to all of these places around the world. And I'm still connected to them. And I'm still making sure that this benefit is happening. And in, you know, in the 10 years that AEI has been around, we've been able to give a million dollars to these programs. And like that is just an unfathomable amount of money to me that I as Nora as an individual would never get to do. But because other people had these dreams, they wanted to come to me. And so all our dreams get to interact together and means that like the boats are rising animals are being helped by these families who love animals as well or are being benefited. It's yeah, it's a dream all around.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 58:28

That just reminded me, one of my friends and mentors and the group that I partnered with in Guatemala, Maria Pacheco, says that collective dreams are unstoppable. And that's just really what that reminds me of. I'm writing that we can do this thing on a small scale as an individual. But when we bring all of our dreams together, that's really where the power lies. And I love that that is something that you're able to really bring to life through your business. As people are listening, I'm hoping that they're really excited to be able to have such a unique experience. Nora, where do they find you? And what kind of experiences do you offer for them? I know you have solo travel and some group travel experiences, right?