Episode 105 - Allison Sodha, Sodha Travel

Travel

Nov. 30

Locally-led tourism initiatives are more sustainable as they sustain and promote healthier, happier communities. Community-based tourism is one of the most critical ways that travel can benefit the local economy, preservation, and wilderness. It is also beneficial to you as the traveler because you are truly connecting to the places you are visiting, making memorable human connections, and learning about a destinations culture and history.

First time to India? Traveling with a tour group that won't allow you to do anything outside of the package? Want to experience the real India, but have been told not to travel alone? You'll come home from your adventure in India saying "Wow, I travelled India". Not just that, but you'll also be able to talk about why it was one of the best travel experiences of your life.

That's what happened when a few adventurous souls decided to figure out why: The power and possibility that travel has to change a person. There is no route map for this journey, just a desire to share the magic of travel and how it can make an even more positive impact than ever imagined.

Christine’s guest today knows all too well the magic and beauty of India.

Allison has interviewed diplomats and dignitaries, facilitated panels on sustainable travel in South Asia, and contributed her work to several international publications. When not traveling, you will find her sampling the international foods carts with her husband and three children in Portland, Oregon.

In this conversation, Allison shares about how experiences and curiosities in her childhood led her on her path of study in college and created a deep affinity for India. She talks about the importance of creating responsible travel experiences that give back and how that can enhance travelers experiences.

We also talk about the reopening of Bhutan and her experience working there and how the recently increased Sustainable Development fees will support tourism development. Lastly, Allison shares her passion for empowering women and dive for a moment into an area we both feel passionate about education and support of menstrual equity.

Join Christine now for her soulful conversation with Allison Sodha.

In this episode, Christine and Allison discuss:

How Allison’s childhood experiences and curiosities led her on her path of study that created a deep affinity for India
How to curate and cultivate the experience for others that also give back
What is the transformational power of travel and why does it matter?
Where does the fear of India come from?
What intrigues travelers about Bhutan?
The importance of sustainable pay to service providers
Allison’s passion for empowering women and education & support of menstrual equity
Why its important to research where you are going before you travel

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

Want more information about Sodha Travel and the travel experiences they offer, head over to www.sodhatravel.com

Follow Sodha Travel on your favorite social media platform - Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn

Join me for my Women’s Wilderness and Yoga Retreat in Alaska in March 2023!

We’ll be traveling 63 miles north of the Arctic Circle to stay at Arctic Hive, owned by my friend Mollie Busby and her husband Sean. This boutique property nestled in the Brooks Range is way off the beaten path and also off grid. We’ll stay in beautiful cabins built by hand by our hosts, practice yoga in their yoga dome lovingly referred to as The Hive, with gorgeous views of the surrounding nature.

We’ll explore the wilderness by snowshoe and dog sled, connect with members of the local community to learn about living in this remote environment, enjoy daily yoga practice and vegan meals all while keeping our eye out for the beautiful northern lights that like to show off their magic this time of year.

I only have 6 spaces for this unique adventure and a few are already taken. Hop over to the Lotus Sojourns website to book yours today.

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Want to learn more, you can listen to my Soul of Travel conversation, episode 67 with Mollie Busby

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WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of this year’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.

About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you’ll hear the story of women who are industry professionals and seasoned travelers and community leaders who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers.

The guests work in all sectors of the tourism industry. You'll hear from adventure-based community organizations, social impact businesses, travel photographers and videographers, tourism boards and destination marketing organizations, and transformational travel experts. They all honor the idea that travel is more than a vacation and focus on sustainable travel, eco-travel, community-based tourism, and intentional travel.

These conversations are meant to educate, inspire and create community. They are directed to new travelers and seasoned travelers, as well as industry professionals and those who are curious about a career in travel.

If you want to learn about new destinations, types of travel, or how to be more intentional or live life on purpose, join Christine Winebrenner Irick for soulful conversations with her community of fellow travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor.) Allison Sodha (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing and production by Rayna Booth.

Transcript

KEYWORDS

travel, India, conversation, people, communities, travelers, women, feel, destination, world, support, country, experience, education, Bhutan, tourism

Christine Winebrenner Irick 00:08

Thank you for joining me for soulful conversations with my community of fellow travelers, exploring the heart, the mind and the globe. These conversations highlight what travel really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. Each week, I'll be speaking to women who are tourism professionals, world travelers and leaders in their communities will explore how travel has changed them and how that has rippled out and inspired them to change the world. These conversations are as much about travel as they are about passion, and living life with purpose, chasing dreams, building businesses, and having the desire to make the world a better place. This is a community of people who no travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness, and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart centered change makers I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick. And this is the Soul of Travel.

Allison Sodha is the President of Sodha Travel and Author of Go! Girl Guides India. In the past two decades, she has spent considerable time exploring the Indian subcontinent to create experiences fueled by a deeper understanding of local communities. Allison has interviewed diplomats and dignitaries, facilitated panels on sustainable travel in South Asia and contributed her work to several international publications.

When not traveling, you will find her sampling the international food carts with her husband and three children in Portland, Oregon. In our conversation, Allison shares about how experiences and curiosities in her childhood led her on her path of study in college and created a deep affinity for India. She talks about the importance of creating responsible travel experiences that give back and how that can enhance travelers experiences. We talk about the reopening of Bhutan and her experience working there and how the recently increased Sustainable Development fees will support tourism development.

We also talk about her passion for empowering women and dive for a moment into an area we both feel passionate about education and support of menstrual equity. My soul was dancing all over the place during this conversation. It is one of those beautiful moments where I feel honored to be able to have such a powerful connection and grateful to be able to share it with you. Join me now for my soulful conversation with Allison Sodha. Welcome to the soul of travel podcast. Today I got to sit down with Allison Sodha who is the President of Sodha Travel.

And also recently the Author of Go! Girl Guides India and I'm so excited for us to get to sit down. We were just having a pre-interview chat. And we have spent a lot of time together in the virtual space but never one on one. So this is really fun to get to do this. And it just can't wait to share your story with our listeners. So welcome to the podcast, Allison.

03:38

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to share space.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 03:41

Thank you. Well, to begin, I would love for you just to briefly introduce yourself and let our listeners know who you are in the space of travel right now.

03:52

Yes, Namaste everyone. My name is Allison and as Christine mentioned, I am the President of Sodha Travel and the Author of Go! Girl Guides India. And my specialty is in curating and researching the impact of travel from a sustainable and regenerative place on the landscape of South Asia, particularly the Indian subcontinent. And yes, and I look forward to having this engaging dialogue about how things are shifting in this part of the world.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 04:21

Excellent. Thank you. i As you were just saying only those three sentences, I was like, oh, there's like five more things I want to add to the list of what we already have planned to talk about. But we I'm sure it will all kind of fold into the conversation. To start I would love to just get an understanding of when you first began exploring the world. I know that you were an early traveler, and then also kind of understand how you developed such an affinity for India and really began to focus your business in that area.

04:55

Sure. So my father was a pilot. And so I grew up very fortunate to Have you traveled the world. So I had the travel bug very early on, I took my first flight at four months old. And from there, it's just been an absolute journey. I always had an affinity for India growing up, even though I never actually visited the country. I think part of this was probably from my mom who had a deep connection to the Deepak Chopra Center. She was a meditation instructor. And as I was growing up, I would learn a lot about the meaning of IR Veda and what that meant Holistic Health, meditation, of course, we learned meditation, I learned meditation at the age of nine.

And I would go with her, at times to the Chopra Center in California to participate and observe. And so I was very fascinated by these topics, especially growing up in the Deep South in Atlanta, Georgia, it was really not something that was a part of my environment. And so, when I went to school at the University of Colorado, Boulder, I decided to make that my course of study. And so I studied Indian religion and history. Some of my favorite courses were foundations of Hinduism, and Buddhist elements and Tantra, and really understanding the disconnect and connection between the religions and the footprint that they've left and the landscape. And so after college, what do you really do with that degree, right? So most people assumed I would go on to perhaps teach. But instead, I decided to finally make my first trip to India. And to start writing for various publications, I started writing for Little India magazine, and my travels would really take me beyond that point, what was the well traveled path?

In India, the same big bus tours, the same destinations. And I found that there was so much magic in these areas of the country that were not being developed, or really even introduced to travelers. And so through time, as I continued my research and my writing, I decided that I, my purpose was going to start a travel company that really focused on this part of the world, and introducing these destinations and the people and the communities to travelers that we're in at that time, not in a guide. Right. And that was something that I felt was really important. As someone who had the opportunity to travel a lot, I found that so many of my most memorable moments were when the ones that were unplanned, unscheduled, not necessarily the highlights, right. And so I wanted to try to curate and cultivate that experience for others. And that's what led to me starting, so to travel,

Christine Winebrenner Irick 07:41

oh, my goodness, I feel like there are so many parallels. And this is also so unusual for me, and that I really know none of your backstory normally. I like research a little bit more. And I was like, like, because I know we've shared space, I just trust that it's going to be aligned. And I'm not even going to do that. And I love that I just learned so much. But I grew up in rural Montana. And I had a lot of similar interests, but zero exposure to it. I just found myself really gravitating toward anything that felt more like, you know, traditional healing or real, I was very curious about world religions as well and really wanted to explore that. And through some of my studies, I also found myself drawn to that.

So I love that we had maybe some similar things of curiosity, and also thinking about you learning about meditation and some of these practices and experiences when you were so young. I've shared that very much with my daughters now. And you know, they, they don't even, like it's I love that it's such a part of their life. They're like, Oh, mom's meditating, or, Oh, I'm feeling really frustrated, I probably should do a breathing exercise. And it was so cool to see how different their experience is because of that.

So I love that you had that so much a part of your life growing up, I feel like that's such a unique thing. And now it really makes sense why you were so drawn to that region. I also love how you shared that, you know, you began traveling in India doing the more traditional tours, but noticed what was missed, and then had the awareness that the things that meant so much to you were those intimate connections and getting out and exploring. And for me that was similar, like when I wanted to start at low to sojourns. I thought, what are the stories I tell over and over and over?

Like when I speak about travel? What gets me excited and it's always like, the story of the time I sat with this one woman and she told me about you know, this thing and we really connected and, and for me also like I can't remember if we were speaking English or if we had a translator or whatever, because it's so amazing to connect in that way. So I love all of those things that you share. And I love that that's how you want to bring people into India and share the travel experiences with them.

10:06

Yes, thank you. I know, I feel like often that those experiences, like you said, the conversation, goes beyond language, right? It goes beyond anything we could think of on an intellectual level. There's something so much deeper about that moment. And I always feel like there's something greater than us that's bringing that together. There's some meaning behind it. And it's so powerful.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 10:29

Yeah. Yeah. And I also love it, so I have not been to India either. And it's one of those places, I have felt very drawn since I was young. Like, I have watched so many films from India, I've read so many books by authors, and I don't know why, like, I keep feeling that same connection. And I think maybe it is that sense of like, I feel for me, I feel like that sense of spirituality and that there's just something that lives there differently than it lives in the US. And I think maybe that's why like, I feel like when I go there, some aha will happen. Yeah, so I'm really excited.

11:09

It's very, very common. And I love to hear you say that, because something that we communicate to our clients often is we're going through this intake process and really get to know them. No, there's not one itinerary of ours in the last 17 years, that's been the same. And we really strive to cultivate very unique and personalized journeys. And through those conversations, I learned so much about the other people and when they come back, something that we often hear from our travelers, which just fills my cup, and my soul is always about, I've been transformed. But I don't know how yet it takes some time almost to reintegrate into society, after visiting India.

And we often either don't hear from clients for a while they say something where I feel changed, there's something within me, that's been sparked, but I need to get my footing, I need to figure out what that is, is I'm back now in this world and this energy in this reality, right? Because there is something that's just overwhelmingly powerful about that part of the world. Some people believe it's an energy vortex, some people believe it's just the collective energy of the people and, and the culture. However you want to define it, I do believe that there's something that really transcends all words, and affects people very personally, when they take a journey to India.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 12:27

I also love the idea of how to think about transformation. That's something I talk a lot about is the transformational power of travel and conversations happen around, you know, fear of transformation, or the discomfort of transformation. And I love how you just shared and this is how I think about it too, is that transformation isn't like this, like switch, it's not that you're gonna go on a transformational travel experience.

And, and like immediately, like evolve into a new being. But it is like this little thing that is ignited and, and it might even just be a shift in your perception of yourself or a shift in your perception of your place in the world. And like you said, it's something then just kind of starts to bloom. And you don't even know until maybe years later that you've had this transformation, because it takes a while to integrate it. I think that's so amazing. And I hope that people listening can really kind of take that with them. And I think it also lowers the expectation for a trip to have this big boom at the moment. Because a lot of times I think it is like five years later, you'll reflect and you're like, oh, that's where this came from. And now you can see how it has become a part of your life.

13:48

I agree that my dear friend who traveled with me on my phone, when we first went to India, we went together. She was also a student of Indian religion. Her focus was Buddhist and mine was Hinduism. And when we took this journey after we came back, I felt like this just set it all really she went back to work. We were both in this space of wow, we feel like our life has been transformed. There's something now there's a greater purpose. We are rethinking how we are meant to live this life, and what is the best way to do it where we can serve others. And she returned to her job. And a few days later, a colleague asked her, she said, you know, how was your trip? How was your experience? And she asked her and she said, You know, it's funny that she said You look so much taller. And my friend without missing a beat looked at her and she said no, I'm not taller, but my life has been elevated. And I just always think about that because after that she left the job. She left her relationship. She really went on a completely different path in her life that has brought her tremendous joy. But there is there's an elevation of spirit

Christine Winebrenner Irick 14:59

Oh So good. Oh my goodness, I feel like I just want to sit with that moment of conversation for a while. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I know that in your designs, you talked a little bit about the consultations that go in before to really craft each trip for someone. But I know that socially conscious itineraries, and focusing on how your travel can positively impact a destination are things that are really important to you. How do you feel that that enhances the traveler experience as well, because I feel like when you make those investments in the community, you are actually creating a better space for your travelers. But I'd love to hear what socially conscious means to you and why that's so important.

15:45

Well, I've always believed in this idea of People First environment first, you know, we're all connected, I believe. And so there's an authenticity to that. And when travelers are, when our clients, we call them or so to travelers, when they're experiencing a trip with us, and they have this immersion, and they're engaging with these communities, they can recognize on an almost intrinsic level that it is authentic, this isn't something that's staged, it isn't something we're trying to do about that to get $1 We're not trying to do it for the notoriety or for you know, the publicity. We're just trying to do it so that our travelers can be a part of the greater narrative of changing this conversation.

All right, I feel like it's very much a collaborative process. And so for us, being socially conscious is about making sure that people understand that not only from a financial perspective and environmental perspective, but where we really are having the most impact. A lot of people can think that their dollars are going toward good, but they're not necessarily doing that. Transparency is key, right? We want them to feel like they're not just doing something, and then being hands off, but that they're really a part of all of that. And I think that just honestly starts with conversation, you know, like what you and I are having right now. It starts with this idea of creating dialogue and space.

And understanding that socially conscious is really that's the foundation to us. It's about really having a deeper awareness and understanding by learning about what someone else is going through, and how, what role we can play and making things better. We don't need to be the best, but how can we be better a little bit every day? And I think India, the Indian subcontinent, and South Asia, in general, is one region of the world where we can very easily feel, especially from a Western perspective, how we can make a difference, because there are so many things different from our lives. And so we're able to have an impact hopefully, that goes beyond what we know. And so to me, socially conscious is really about awareness and conversation and engagement.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 17:49

Thank you, I also would love to talk about, I know that you work in Bhutan, and they have recently reopened to tourism, which is been so amazing, like I've seen all the buzz about people who have been, you know, waiting and waiting to go, maybe some people didn't even realize that they had been, you know, isolated this whole time and and really did just began allowing travelers back in. And in the past, they have really focused on sustainability, as well as creating a balance between tourism and preserving their culture and offering really authentic experiences. And in order to do that they had a sustainable development fee that tourists paid to travel in the country, which was a daily fee. And they have increased that quite a lot as they have reopened. And so I would love to hear about your experiences working there, the new fees and how you think that's going to support the tourism development in Bhutan as they reopen.

18:44

It's an interesting conversation because the SDF Sustainable Development fee used to be around $60 to $65 per person, and now it's over $200 per person, and that's per day. So you think about, okay, if someone is traveling for 710 14 days, they really are introducing or reintroducing a model that places an emphasis on this sustainability. It's a joy, it's an absolute delight to see our clients back in Bhutan right now. Because especially because we, it's not just us having services on the ground. I mean, these are our friends, these are colleagues, these are family members for us. So throughout the pandemic, it's not just from a perspective of a sale or a business, but it's also about the livelihoods of our communities that we're supporting. So the conversation around the SDF has been interesting because the government implemented this, you know, with the hopes of making sure that people that are traveling there are very much understanding the dollar, what their dollar means when they're experiencing this country. Right. Bhutan has always been a destination that has more structure, right? You can't have independent travel, you can't arrive on your own, you need to work with an authorized company.

They already have those parameters in place to try to limit the impact of the Western And world's on their country. And with this, though it is allowing, or it is making less, it's introducing less opportunity in a way for these former guides or hotel operators or proprietors, because for now, yes, the doors have reopened, but less people are going to Bhutan, because of the cost ones that used to be able to afford it now need to really look at what this increase means. So I feel that I'm excited to learn more at the end of the year when they conduct their GNH survey of their gross national happiness survey. The government conducts this every year. And they pull certain communities in Bhutan to really determine what is making people happy, what brings them joy. And during the pandemic, they tried to do this, but it was more limited because they had less access to resources and to the outside world. So at the end of the year, when they conduct the survey, I'll be curious to learn more about how the locals respond to this SDF. And if that will actually change the government's ideas and ways of increasing their profit margins to assure that the country maintains that level of sustainability.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 21:11

Yeah, there's so many interesting things and thinking about how that works. And I can only imagine, like, there's so many different elements to the conversation, but like you said, you know, in the absence of travel, obviously, I think, especially for so many of us smaller operators who are so connected, like you said, to inbound operators, to our partners on the ground, that they really are family. And when we saw that we weren't bringing travelers there, I think many of us felt a lot of despair for not being able to continue to support those communities, like you said, I mean, it is family, it goes beyond a business. And especially when you're trying to create such personal experiences for your travelers that takes being so connected to the places that you're traveling. And so I know for me, that's really where this podcast actually came from, was the idea that I knew people like yourself would be really wrestling with, how am I going to continue to support these extensions of my businesses on the ground?

How can I continue to have a positive impact if we aren't traveling with no idea, the long term nature of what that would mean? And so I think it's interesting to think about how these fees can be a positive can be a negative, like they are really meant to limit tourism, which I think is amazing, because it's such a unique destination. We don't want mass tourism to be there, because it will completely destroy why we're going there. I mean, much like many destinations, this is a conversation we could be having about every destination in the world. And like you've said, you know, how? How will this greater fee limit? Will it limit too much tourism? And then will it actually kind of be counterintuitive to what they're trying to create? So, yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to see how this model and this shift works in the country.

And, you know, like you said, what, maybe after a year of having it in practice, what that means and but I think it's really great, because it also the thing that you said is it makes people keenly aware of how that what their dollar is doing at a destination. And a lot of times, I think, especially as independent travelers who might not be traveling with a group or a company, we're not really thinking about as much about where that dollar is going. And when you have to just hand that over at the beginning of an experience, you're like, oh, wait, let me think about why I'm doing this. Where is this money going? How is it impacting the destination? So I think it's such an interesting country to think about with sustainable tourism.

23:47

It really is. And like you said, just before this model develops, and where it goes, I mean, I was in Bhutan, right before the pandemic, and they were in really deciding where they're going to put in this rim road, this larger road that can accommodate larger vehicles, right, no more 1214 16 passenger? What if we have larger buses? What if we accommodate bigger tour groups? And that was a big conversation at the time, because they were saying, Well, this is going to have a bigger impact, though, right? If we're to increase our infrastructure to support this, then we also need to be prepared for the amount of people that are going to come in and utilize this infrastructure. And are we going to have the hotels? And are we going to be able to offer the same level of service and what impact will it have sustainably on our country? And for right now they tabled that. And so they really want to see now as they reopen, and how things develop if that still is right, if that's the right decision. And so I'm interested to see how that dialogue continues.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 24:42

Yeah. And if you bring it back to the aspect of thinking about transformational travel, there's something about the like, limited access or the intentionality that it takes to travel there and this like dedication to the journey that amplifies the power If the journey and so it's like there's built in magic through all of that process as well.

25:06

That was beautifully said. And I couldn't agree with you more.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 25:10

Yeah, thank you. I mean, yeah, I think that's part of the mystical nature of me wanting to go there, too, is just like, you know, only so many people get to have this experience, and not in a bucket list way, but like, in a real spiritual and, like, I don't know, I've always, even since I've been younger, been really intrigued by indigenous cultures and places where people haven't been before, like, I always imagined, like people going into the Amazon for the first time and pop into Guinea and, like, getting to see places almost as if, like a living museum, right? Like, the way things have been for so many years, without all the impact of, you know, colonization and modernization. And it's like, We can glimpse, yes, but it was like to live in a time that maybe was idyllically more peaceful in my mind, or something like that. But I feel like, to me, this taps into that space as well.

26:08

It does. I believe that there's this ebb and flow as to what intrigues travelers about Bhutan, someone like Anthony Bourdain will go and visit and everyone if their interest, right, oh, Bhutan, tell me more about this landlocked Himalayan kingdom. And, wow, I didn't realize it. And then when they start to really look into traveling there, they do realize that you need to be very intentional on where you're going, Oh, I didn't realize there's only a few airports where you can arrive. And I didn't realize the amount of airfare that's required to arrive in Paro.

And I didn't even realize that the pilots that operate these flights have to go to a very special flight school because the airport is so dangerous from a categorization because of where it's, you know, placed in this valley in the middle of the mountains. And then just the logistics of reaching the country in itself really prepares you for something when you arrive. And then when you do ultimately land in Paro, and you walk outside, and you go, this is really like nowhere else in the world. I am open and ready for this journey, because I don't have anything to really prepare myself. And to me, that's part of the beauty of traveling to Bhutan.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 27:15

Yeah. Oh, my goodness, my Wonder less this, like, completely feel already had this wish on my list. But now it's ever growing? Well, I would love to move in to talk a little bit about female travelers. And I know, especially my audience, this is something you know, we talk a lot about safety and travel, we were also talking a little bit about transformation. And I think something in the same conversation is uncomfortable. And we often think there has to be some level of discomfort for that growth to occur. And so when you're talking about female travelers and talking about both discomfort and danger, I would love to just talk about where you think that comes into the conversation and how that impacts female travelers?

28:03

Sure. Oh, it's a loaded question. But let me you just let me know if I keep going on with this. So I feel like this is quite in depth. I say in the book, often there's a fundamental difference between discomfort and danger, and statistics and sensationalism. And I think that those words get used a lot, especially relating to women traveling across India and the Indian subcontinent. And I am one who's really trying to change that narrative. As someone who has been to India, I can't even tell you how many times at this point, I consider it my second home. I have traveled in personal capacities, professional capacities by myself leading groups with my family. So I can honestly say that I have never had an experience where I felt that I was in danger.

Was I uncomfortable? Absolutely. And there's a big difference. I think as females often we are taught that if we're uncomfortable, that Oh, must be warning us of something. And it could be the right intuition, we should always always listen to that. But I also feel like sometimes we're told a story of something. And that plants the seed for what we believe is the truth. And I think that that relates a lot to India, there might be an international news making a tragic event. And as awful as it is, the people and travelers especially females, that is what they claim to, because that is what was in the best part of that narrative, right? I keep using the word narrative, because I think it's really powerful in this context. I think that when they travel, they go, Oh, am I unsafe? You know, someone is looking at me, for example, in India, staring is very common, but it is almost never from a place of a threat. It's from a place of curiosity. And we start to then, you know, you start to tell yourself a story of what's happening and it's not necessarily true.

And so I think that when you're I'm not here to, of course, speak for every woman and I'm not here to minimize the experiences of what another woman may have gone through. That's certainly not my purpose. But I also feel that a lot of women are not are hesitant or they're not visiting this part of the world because they're afraid of what they've heard. And so I feel like there are absolutely ways and I'm trying to engage more women who have had positive experiences in this country, and in this part of the world, because I think it's important to have a dialogue that's different than what we hear about, about and also what Indian women and what Locals also feel. It's also very different from a foreigner. And I have these conversations so much with my own family, right, I'm married to a man from Delhi, we have these conversations a lot. And with other females, and like my colleagues that are women, they're how they raised the environment they're exposed to, there are also differences between locals and foreigners and how they are perceived to be to others. And so I feel like this is definitely a country where women are more hesitant. They want to feel more prepared, they want to feel safe, which can absolutely be accomplished. And I don't want that fear or anxiety of what they feel is a bigger context to stop them from going.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 31:10

Thank you. That was such such a great introduction, I would say to that space of conversation, because like you said, there's so much that could be said, but I think that is a beautiful place for people to begin to examine if they do have any hesitancy or reluctance to travel to the area like where is that coming from? Is this like you said? Is this a narrative that they have internalized from one source or another without really understanding where that came from? And I know for myself, even I will hear it in my own thoughts.

And then I'm like, Wait, why do I feel this way? Like, I actually don't believe it to be true. But I know that somewhere inside of me at some point, this was a story that I took in, and it's still a part of my subconscious about the region. And I haven't, like I said, I haven't been to India, but I spent six weeks in Thailand. And there was also some conversation with people about me going and traveling as a solo traveler, as a woman in in Thailand, and like, what will my safety be how, you know, and and I think it does come to play in, in a lot of places, if women are setting out to travel around the world, there's a lot of concern of safety. So I think it is interesting to ask where that concern is coming from, because I think if we really start to unpack it, where we realize it's not even our own fear, which is really interesting when you were like when you come to that place?

32:43

Absolutely, yeah. And you're right. And there's a way I think that we can experience a destination where we're not, there's a way that we can do it, where we're open, where we're prepared, where we recognize, okay, India, even for the most seasoned traveler, is a very complex country to navigate. I mean, even after however many times I've been there, I still have a private driver available, I still make sure I have my team available, I arranged my itinerary and my visit in a way where I know that I'm going to be safe, I'm going to have support, I'm going to have advocacy, but all of that you can still have a profound experience within that planning sphere. I think also there's this disconnect sometimes where it's either all here all here, I'm going to go and just have this experience that isn't really planned.

And I want to be in the moment, or I want to have everything prepared for me, I want to know where I'm going. And that can be a little bit of both, right? You can have the structure in place to know that you're supportive when you're visiting a country like India, but India is India, it's going no matter how much you're trying to disconnect from it, you know, it's going to be there. And whatever you resist always persists. And I say that often to our clients, the faster you ease into India, the easier it's going to be for you. Because it is as they often say an assault on the senses. But that assault on the senses can also be beautiful. If we see it from a different angle, we don't see it as something that's so harsh. We see it as something vibrant, if we don't see it as something so chaotic, but we see this sense of community, right? We can always see a different angle from the lens of what we're

Christine Winebrenner Irick 34:27

what we're experiencing. Yeah, absolutely. I always say that travel gives you exactly what you need. And like you can have a group of travelers together all in one place and every one of them will be having a completely different experience because, you know, we all are our own individual beings experiencing a place and and we're gonna have different emotional responses based on our own experiences. And I think that's one of those incredible things is that they feel like India from the people I've talked to that have traveled there. The lessons and the teaching that it gives you really can be so powerful. And like you said, especially if you come open and and, and knowing that you are going to be uncomfortable. And know that that discomfort is where like, all of the magic is within magic

35:24

happens. Yeah.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 35:25

Well, I love that we were able to dive into that so much, because I think that is going to be really, I think impactful for those listening. I would also love to talk about, I know that you have been recognized for some of your work in a project focused on literacy and Fairtrade empowering women. And these are spaces that for me when I travel, I really love to focus on learning about that in an area where I'm traveling. So I would love to hear from you a little more about this initiative and why it was important to you.

35:59

Yeah, so this started really when we launched our company. And this was one of the first initiatives that we felt we have, as part of our company, we have a giving back program philanthropy. So a portion of all of our sales go back to one of our organizations that we support. And we just felt like there was so much we felt that was, especially at that time, where the women were, it was more of a staged element of where people will go to see oh, let me go see these indigenous communities. Or let me see these women empowerment. So these NGOs, but really, when you delve a little bit deeper, you still said that a lot of them are still managed by men, they still had the same type of power, the women being paid, they weren't being not being paid fairly. There was not a sustainable operation in place. Were the children of these women actually being whether it was their education being paid for or are they going to school.

So I think for us, it was first taking a step back and really saying we're going to dive a little bit deeper and see which organizations are truly lifting women up and offering them an opportunity to support themselves and their families. And part of that was literacy. Right? I mean, India is absolutely one of the most you know, when you think of it in sheer numbers. It's one of the most educated countries in the world, right one of the largest English speaking countries in the world. And so they have a very high level of education there. But a lot of these communities get left behind, especially ones that are poor, as we often see across the globe. So we really wanted to go in and try to change the model, lift women up by having women in places of management where women are running these NGOs, where women are able to connect with the women, the confines and the structure of patriarchy in India make it difficult often for women to feel like they even have a voice, especially ones that are raised in these communities where they're seen as second class citizens, which is still definitely prevalent in parts of India. And so we wanted to go in and kind of just change that model a little bit. And also have men come in who really were wanting to partner with us who wanted to be a part of the change, who didn't simply want to be in positions of power, and to want it but really to get on the ground and continue that conversation.

Right. So to us, it was more of a holistic and collaborative, you know, attempt to rise up. And so by doing that, we've been able to go into some of these communities and up Uttar Pradesh, which is a state in India, MP amount of Pradesh, and kind of talk to these women and have these children be educated at a level where they understand and that leads into what we are very much supporting right now, which is the pad project. And so we are a proud supporter of them and their initiatives across India. And you know, this idea of, you know, a girl should you know, she has her period, she might miss out on school. And then if she misses out in school, she falls behind. And then if she falls behind, then she just stops going to school. And then she might get married at a younger age, she might be having children at a younger age. And then her options are very limited. These communities, we feel like a period, as they say, the movie should end with a sentence and not a girl's education.

And so by going in and educating these girls as to what a pat is what menstruation is menstrual health education, that brings empowerment as well to the understanding of their bodies, their understanding of saying no of body autonomy, and allowing them with that power in those resources to then not miss out on school, and to be able to have a higher graduation rate and to go on because in a lot of these communities, Christina, they don't even think of higher education, right? It's not something that is a goal for them. Their goal is to get married and have families you know, and to support their husbands and support their husbands family. So we are really trying to go in and make a change by partnering with these NGOs. And make sure that these young women are literate, that they're getting an education past seventh and eighth grade, that they have the appropriate pads and administration and education and resources to continue on and to really really change that. conversation because there's still a big stigma in India.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 40:03

Oh my goodness, I feel okay, sidebar for a whole nother conversation that we could be having. This is also one of my, I guess, places of passion and impact and travel. And I think when I first heard about period poverty, and you know what, what this looks like across the world, and even in the US, which I was very surprised, there are places where there isn't adequate education and access, and it does impact what it looks like for girls going to school. And it's, for me, this was kind of epically mind blowing, to think about girls, having to miss one week of school every month, and how far that puts them behind. And then how this really supports the patterns of the patriarchy. And it then becomes easier for girls to just not go to school. And then because they haven't gone to school, like you said, then they're, they're now getting married younger and supporting their families. And it just kind of keeps that system in check almost. And the freedom that that provides, and I've had conversations with a woman in Uganda who has really worked hard to create change in her community, and I had less bargains from days for girls on the podcast. So I love that you brought this into the conversation. And for listeners, I would just highly encourage you to take a moment and see how tourism and gender equity and period poverty are huge components to this conversation.

41:38

Absolutely. So deeply rooted and interconnected. And even beyond this place of education, right? Or patriarchy, you also even think about just the basic hygiene, right? If these women don't have access to these products, they're using old rags, they're using leaves, they're using things that cause infection, right, it becomes more than that, you know, even greater than something as fundamental as an education. I mean, now we're talking about something where she has to go to a male doctor who doesn't understand what she has. I mean, there's, you're right, it's so deeply rooted, it can go on, and we just really want to be a part of making sure that these communities understand the impact of something as simple to us, as it may seem, is having menstrual products and being aware of what that means for ourselves and our communities.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 42:28

Yeah. Oh, my goodness, thank you so much. i This conversation is going to be just like my favorite part of my day. I'm very short of it. So well, I would love to have one more thing on my list of things I wanted to talk about in this, I think we've already tapped into it a little bit. But the idea of the responsibility of travel companies to offer sustainable pay to service providers. And I think this really began with this caught the conversation where we're talking about how connected we are to our service providers. Like I think this is something maybe we are inherently doing or working to do as smaller operators who have this deep, deep connection with the people they work with, but across the larger industry. Why do you, I would love just to hear your thoughts on how this is so important, and how as maybe even as travelers, how we can understand that that higher cost has such a positive impact that we should be willing to, to pay that in order to create sustainable living wages are the people that are showing us their country and hosting us in their space.

43:41

Absolutely. Because we all love a good deal. Right? But at what cost. And I think now in this kind of post pandemic landscape. These companies are slashing prices to stimulate this crippling economy, right, which I understand across the world. You know, across the globe, we see this. I think, though, what many people don't recognize and it's unfortunately, it's developing practice now, very much in South Asia and from speaking with some of my colleagues as well in South America, and I'm sure in other parts of the world, where the companies are basically going back to these SPS, the service providers, and they're saying, Okay, well here used to pay you $100 a day now we're going to pay you $20 a day, take it or leave it, right. They've had no income for the past two and a half plus years. So they have had no way to support their families.

For them, they will take the $20 because $20 is better than nothing and $20 will at least allow them to put food on the table. But it is the responsibility of us as travelers to look at what and really ask questions of our tour companies and our in our travel companies. How are you supporting the people who have been most affected during this pandemic? I know for myself, I just did not take any sort of stuff. salary at all, during the pandemic. And I gave all that money into a fund to help support RRSPs. Because I know that they needed it more. And we had resources here in the United States where we were having access to funds if we needed to, right. So I think that the greater conversation needs to be Oh, yes, we like to say that we only spent $500 on this.

But who is that really affecting? Most of the time, it is not the travel companies, they're not going to be the ones taking less, they're going to be finding ways to negotiate. And I say that with air quotes, because it's not really a no gate and negotiations, it's more of a take it or leave it. And so they feel like if they won't, somebody else will, it can get complicated for travelers, because even if you ask these questions of the company that you're working with, they can very easily be dishonest, right? They can say, Oh, this is our diversity and inclusion policy. This is our sustainable pay policy, this is how we operate, but you never really know you're just going based on their word. So what I encourage travelers to do is when they're in these destinations, as they're working with these companies, just have some light conversations with your drivers, with your guides, with your service providers, with your transfer representatives to really learn about, you know, are they happy working with this particular company?

What has been their concerns, you know, you're going to learn and discover very easily, if they feel content, if they feel like they're being supported, you know, at least it I know that so to travel, we always make sure that not only are ESPYS being provided, but are their children being provided for do they have what they need? Do they have enough food? Do they have access to an education? Do they need a laptop for remote school? What is it that they may need? And how can we figure out a way to make it happen? Because to me, it's not just about us, it's about the greater good. It's always about the greater good. So I think that as we are seeing these incredible hot flash deals coming at us left and right, let's just be mindful as to who is really being affected at the bottom line.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 46:56

Yeah. Oh, my goodness, thank you. I was also reminded of a conversation I had with Maranatha, hey, Soos. And she works a lot with quarters and creating more positive conditions. And one of the things she says is, you know, like you said, you, you can think that this is the experience because it's being painted by the operator. But when you're there on the ground, look around and notice like our porters are being treated, how are your local guides being treated? And don't be afraid to be the person that says something about it? To ask a question. Like, I think as travelers, we sometimes feel like there's this huge barrier between us and the people providing services for us.

And I and even because sometimes it feels uncomfortable that they are providing the service for you should feel uncomfortable. And if it feels uncomfortable, then that's when you really need to ask the question, which is such a hard place to be. And I will even admit, I've definitely liked to let myself off the hook in that space and really regret it later. But yeah, like there's just such, so much room for conversation will go back to that space like this is where it all begins is conversation and it's okay to have it and it's okay to say the wrong thing. And it's okay to like, be uncomfortable. And that's how we can create changes. And I think empowering travelers to be a part of that process is actually going to be how we solve the problems.

And I also would encourage them to think that they're not going to take down a company because they asked a porter if they feel like they're being treated fairly or, like you don't even have to ask that like what, you know, you could you can find other ways to engage and inquire and just learn. And, also, I think, for me, that's so important, because I don't want someone to feel like they're serving me when I'm traveling. Even if they're serving me like I'm their guest, I actually want to feel like they're hosting me. And that gives them the ability to share of themselves, which going back to like both of the foundations of our companies is that connection. And so is the minute that you ask that question, you engage in meaningful conversation, you have provided that person so much value in their own story and their the way that they get to share with you and then all of a sudden this becomes, you know, not often not a fully equitable exchange, but it can become such a can become on the road to an equitable exchange.

49:28

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

Christine Winebrenner Irick 49:32

Before we end our conversation, which I don't want to but we will anyway, I would love for you to just take a moment. I know we've alluded to going to Girl Guides as you were talking about some of the points that are in the book. But can you tell us a little bit more about what our listeners can find where they can find the book? Absolutely. So

49:51

Google Guides India can be found on our website, so to travel.com and that's where you can purchase a signed copy from me if you'd like and it's also available on Amazon It's available as a paperback. And then also as an ebook, so you have the option for both of those. The book is really, it's 450 Plus pages of everything from cultural curiosities to destination inspiration I highlighted.

This is a book that focuses on North and West India. And so I spotlight 20 destinations and five national parks, and break down everything from my recommended hotels and experiences, day trips, where to dine, where to drink, where to shop. And then, of course, part of the book focuses on these cultural curiosities of India, the patriarchy, the caste system, you know, everyone to expect from a budgeting perspective, local transportation, I wanted to offer some insight into the background of the play that you will about to you're about to be, you know, be an active participant in, but then also have you be inspired by some of these destinations, and go beyond what you might know from a guidebook.

And so I hope that my part and I share stories of my own experiences across the country in the past two decades. And I hope that is able to resonate with readers. One of the greatest gifts that I've received since publishing the book earlier this year has been when women have reached out, they bought the book, and they said, You know, I have always been afraid to visit India, it's been this destination that has always been high on my list. But I just felt this anxiety and this uncertainty, and I didn't I wasn't sure if I felt prepared. And through reading about it and having conversations, I encourage all women to reach out to me. If they want to have a conversation about India, I will talk about it or share my experience with you, answer your questions, offer insight, and be fully transparent. But I do hope that it is a resource for women to be inspired and encouraged to

Christine Winebrenner Irick 51:49

visit the country. Yeah, thank you. I love how you said that providing context for the play that you're about to be a part of, because this is something I have really been speaking about and trying to bring into my company as well and actually have been working to design a three months immersive program before you travel, because I think that context is so important. And I feel like it's the one of the ways that we can be the most responsible and have such a positive impact if we really know where we're going, what we're going to be a part of, what our role is, as a traveler, and what the role of tourism isn't as a destination. Like there's just so much that we can learn before we travel that allows for us to have such a much more meaningful experience. So I love that that's kind of the the story and the space that you've created with that book so that people can have that because it is it just it enhances your own experience so much when you have that richer understanding of where you're going, why you're going and what what it will mean, as you travel there.